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Too much of this problem is derived from the coddling of your "autistic nerds" being allowed to sit out gym glass, walk the track, etc instead of having to do pull ups, push ups, and windsprints every day. School PE should mirror boot camp in most respects with a bit of additional recreational sports added in.
People should get to be agentic rather than being forced into activities. (Not that I am against promoting physical activity in society).
We are talking about children. They are already being forced to go to school. I am merely advocating that the time spent there be productive.
I can understand why you are advocating for what you are advocating for. But it is a very let's try to add something to a badly run system argument, when the whole system needs to be destroyed and rebuilt from scratch.
I don't think ending the K-12 system is happening anytime soon, I do support all sorts of efforts to reduce its scope such as vouchers and the enabling of homeschoolers. But, if I were a governor or even merely on a school board, I would be pursuing measures to make my children healthier. And that would mean starting school with a vigorous, non-optional, PE curriculum.
With AI, I think we will be able to upend the current system and replace it with a newer better one.
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And kids should be forced to do certain things, wear certain things learn certain things, so that as adults they have the agency to make choices for themselves about how they want to live.
Letting a kid get through high school with no physical activity is decreasing rather than increasing their agency. It's putting them on a path of laziness, sedentary sloth, and identity formation against athletics.
Forcing a kid to practice athletics when young increases their agency as adults. They can continue to their athletic practice or choose to be a fat slob or choose to try a new sport and it will be easier as a result of their experience.
I don't think it is forcing kids to do things that makes them agentic per se, as opposed to exposing them to different things and having an environment that ensures they engage in various healthy activities. Forcing people typically tends to do the opposite, it raises them to be conformative (unless they turn rebellious as a result of being forced).
Note that I am not against promoting sports or physical activity for kids, I took issue with forcing people to do things in the specific way anti_dan advocated for.
I disagree, though I totally see your point and agree with it. I'm of the opinion that in the modern world, one must embrace the inevitable upper-middle-class-white-person cycle of periodically inventing a new sport ("rich climbing") so that white kids have something they can compete in. It's great to expose kids to lots of different kinds of things they can do! I often joke that Lionel Messi, in a world without soccer, would be a short Argentine mechanic with a weird ability to do things with his feet, no one would know he was one of the greatest athletes of all time. It's important to try a variety of things. But, I disagree with the idea that it should be left to chance: kids should be forced to try a variety of things.
Fundamentally where we differ is here:
The majority of great innovations come out of restrictions. Most modern American men's fashion stems from essentially three places: military uniforms, prison uniforms, or prep school/ivy league/country club dress codes. Innovations to look good while skirting those regulations lead to essentially all male fashion today.
Restrictions and constraints can exist in a system that allows freedom; they don't have to come from being forced. You simply remove the incentives and conditions that enable participation in outcomes you don't want, and introduce barriers to them, while simultaneously creating pathways and support for the outcomes you do want.
It is pretty simple, and all about system design. Kids are naturally curious and become bored if they don't do anything. You create a system where they have the option to participate in all the activities you want them to participate in (and of course you can and should encourage them to continue doing those when they become hard to promote resilience, hardwork and grit, and there are several ways of achieving this without having to use force), and at the same time just don't have the activities you don't want them to participate in (for example just don't give them internet access/electronics devices if you don't want them to be hijacked by their phone all the time). Lionel Messi became himself because he had access to soccer, and there were no competing distractions that diverted his energy away from soccer. The system was conducive to creating intrinsic passion in Lionel, which is necessary for success. It wouldn't have occurred if he was in the type of system anti_dan advocated for. I know because forced P.E. in school never motivated anyone around me into becoming better; and also because when people were allowed to do whatever they want, rather than being forced to participate in the specific activity that was chosen that day, it didn't result into them becoming lazy or growing up into someone who never does physical activity for health.
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But in the previous comment’s context, they’re already being forced into activities and have limited agency, by virtue of being in high school.
Why is promoting a culture where physical fitness is an important aspect in any way less agentic or more forced than the situation where kids already have to be at school doing things adults tell them to do?
You can have a culture that promotes physical fitness as an important aspect, but doing so in a boot camp like space and forcing them to participate in it in what a school environment typically is like currently is what I am against, because I believe it hurts more than it helps and sucks all the joy out of physical activity and sports just like school typically sucks all the joy out of maths/science and everything else you are forced to study there. Plus, schools tend to be ineffective.
I’m with you on schools being ineffective, but I think this is a side (possibly intended) effect of the last 70-80 years of school design.
School, like everything else, is effective when it is a challenge that can be meaningfully failed, when there are stakes attached to failure, and when there is a meaningful release valve, i.e., productive work for dropouts. It’s hard to say any of those three things apply to American schools in the 21st century.
In that regard, you’re right, American schools need a huge overhaul anyways, and trying to encourage physical fitness activities was already being consumed by leftism as far back as Kennedy. Any serious measures would probably fall flat on their face in the teeth of “just be kind” teacher resistance and “don’t get sued” admin resistance.
That being said…
As to having all the joy sucked out of physical activity, sorry, I say this as an obvious nerd of the sort who discovers and posts on the Motte, but not everything is supposed to be joyous. I still eat my vegetables as a middle-aged man, because it was joylessly ingrained in me by adults and is provably demonstrable in the real world that a healthy amount of vegetables is better for me than tubs of ice cream, or even my preferred all steak diet.
Physical activity is the same way. Maybe it’s just the “eating your vegetables of life” activity for the nerds, but I think “it won’t be hedonic” as an argument against something is an argument on weak footing.
I agree that not all school systems have to be ineffective, but most schools are that way globally so currently such a policy will do more harm than good.
Yes not everything has to be joyous, but physical activity doesn't have to be bad either. Kids enjoy playing, and so do adults with the right kind of physical activity and environment. It's only unpleasant when you have gone without physical activity for a long period, so initially it can be tiring and will feel bad, but that's only a result of having systems that discouraged play for kids in the first place. When you force someone to engage in something fun and also suck the joy out of it, the result can often be counterproductive for life as that person forms a bias against doing that activity (like how a lot of kids get maths anxiety, a belief that they are bad at doing it, or it's just not fun for them) in their adult life. It is important not to design systems that have this effect when you can have better systems in place. I don't think that you will disagree that almost all kids enjoy playing, sports and physical activity and engage in it naturally (infact I have never met a kid who didn't like it). You only have to design a system that allows them to continue doing that as they grow older. The problem is that modern life and school systems effectively stop kids from natural play, and then force them into ineffective P.E. classes. The fact you can observe "autistic nerds" who aren't participating in physical activity at all is a symptom that there is something wrong with the current system. There is nothing inherent in these kids that makes them dislike play/physical activity. If you look outside of western society, you will see that these type of children/teens don't have to exist, and it is not because adults have to be force them into physical activity.
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