This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Obviously the average man is much stronger than the average woman, and elite female athletes cannot compete at all against elite male athletes, but I think you and a few posters here are exaggerating the disparity because there’s no way the “slow boys” can compete with actual athletic women.
When I was forced to play basketball in high school PE class, there were some girls who played with the boys, and I can tell you from first hand experience, a clumsy autistic nerd who’s just getting into shape absolutely cannot just move a 5’10 elite female athlete with broader shoulders than him.
Like, I was in OK-ish shape and could do a 5k in 21min, and there were girls who did it in 17mim. Sure, there were boys who could do it in 15min, and most girls did it in 25min or more, but I didn’t stop to think about the statistical distributions, I just saw that there were both boys and girls way ahead of me.
Just look at female athlete records in any sport, compared to the mean or even advanced male performance.
The existence of such a person is a failure of the public schools.
I agree with you with regards to comparing elite female athletes with average guys. But the fact is almost no high school has even one such elite female athlete. Under a proper physical fitness regimen, if the school held a 1v1 tug of war competition girls would win against guys like 5% of the time. That there are so many weak and feeble men is a choice propagated by the system that not only doesn't prioritize physical fitness, it actively discourages it for all but the top percentages. That is why you have guys thinking girls can beat them at things. Because those 20% are working out everyday while he eats potato chips and does nothing. If he merely did 20 minutes of running and 20 minutes of lifting every other day he'd instantly be in the top 5% of females.
I am by no means an elite athlete. That said, I once faced a girl who would go on to be an Olympian in a 1v1 match. I won. It was not close. I wasn't even fully into puberty at the time. I was embarrassed by the existence of the match.
The fact is, if you are losing to girls as a guy in basically every sport but super long distance swimming they are substantially outworking you. If you told George Washington that his country would be dominated by places of child education wherein the average kid just sits all day and cant run a 2 mile sprint to notify the neighbor you need some butter for a pie, he'd be appalled. Movement is the solution. It is, of course, pain as well. But pain is weakness leaving the body.
Eh, when talking about specifically "autistic nerds" (i.e. like 1% of the population), there are certain caveats on that. Autists typically have retarded* co-ordination, and the top end of the "nerds" (i.e. aspie savants) sometimes get accelerated. A 13-year-old boy with garbage co-ordination against a 14-year-old girl isn't such an uneven match.
*I use this word precisely; adult co-ordination is usually normal, but it takes longer to get there.
Too much of this problem is derived from the coddling of your "autistic nerds" being allowed to sit out gym glass, walk the track, etc instead of having to do pull ups, push ups, and windsprints every day. School PE should mirror boot camp in most respects with a bit of additional recreational sports added in.
People should get to be agentic rather than being forced into activities. (Not that I am against promoting physical activity in society).
But in the previous comment’s context, they’re already being forced into activities and have limited agency, by virtue of being in high school.
Why is promoting a culture where physical fitness is an important aspect in any way less agentic or more forced than the situation where kids already have to be at school doing things adults tell them to do?
You can have a culture that promotes physical fitness as an important aspect, but doing so in a boot camp like space and forcing them to participate in it in what a school environment typically is like currently is what I am against, because I believe it hurts more than it helps and sucks all the joy out of physical activity and sports just like school typically sucks all the joy out of maths/science and everything else you are forced to study there. Plus, schools tend to be ineffective.
I’m with you on schools being ineffective, but I think this is a side (possibly intended) effect of the last 70-80 years of school design.
School, like everything else, is effective when it is a challenge that can be meaningfully failed, when there are stakes attached to failure, and when there is a meaningful release valve, i.e., productive work for dropouts. It’s hard to say any of those three things apply to American schools in the 21st century.
In that regard, you’re right, American schools need a huge overhaul anyways, and trying to encourage physical fitness activities was already being consumed by leftism as far back as Kennedy. Any serious measures would probably fall flat on their face in the teeth of “just be kind” teacher resistance and “don’t get sued” admin resistance.
That being said…
As to having all the joy sucked out of physical activity, sorry, I say this as an obvious nerd of the sort who discovers and posts on the Motte, but not everything is supposed to be joyous. I still eat my vegetables as a middle-aged man, because it was joylessly ingrained in me by adults and is provably demonstrable in the real world that a healthy amount of vegetables is better for me than tubs of ice cream, or even my preferred all steak diet.
Physical activity is the same way. Maybe it’s just the “eating your vegetables of life” activity for the nerds, but I think “it won’t be hedonic” as an argument against something is an argument on weak footing.
I agree that not all school systems have to be ineffective, but most schools are that way globally so currently such a policy will do more harm than good.
Yes not everything has to be joyous, but physical activity doesn't have to be bad either. Kids enjoy playing, and so do adults with the right kind of physical activity and environment. It's only unpleasant when you have gone without physical activity for a long period, so initially it can be tiring and will feel bad, but that's only a result of having systems that discouraged play for kids in the first place. When you force someone to engage in something fun and also suck the joy out of it, the result can often be counterproductive for life as that person forms a bias against doing that activity (like how a lot of kids get maths anxiety, a belief that they are bad at doing it, or it's just not fun for them) in their adult life. It is important not to design systems that have this effect when you can have better systems in place. I don't think that you will disagree that almost all kids enjoy playing, sports and physical activity and engage in it naturally (infact I have never met a kid who didn't like it). You only have to design a system that allows them to continue doing that as they grow older. The problem is that modern life and school systems effectively stop kids from natural play, and then force them into ineffective P.E. classes. The fact you can observe "autistic nerds" who aren't participating in physical activity at all is a symptom that there is something wrong with the current system. There is nothing inherent in these kids that makes them dislike play/physical activity. If you look outside of western society, you will see that these type of children/teens don't have to exist, and it is not because adults have to be force them into physical activity.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link