site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 9, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I now interrupt your regularly scheduled WWIII/Nothing Ever Happens to ask a question:

So, the Bike discussion down below generated a lot of angst and heat, so I'd like to poll The Motte on our driving habits a bit (in the CW thread because I do fear we are going to get some strong feelings).

How do we feel about the following:

  1. You should turn on your turn signal every time you switch lanes or otherwise would be expected to use it, even if nobody is around.

  2. Stop signs and red lights need to be fully stopped at, even if nobody is around and you know there isn't a red light camera.

  3. Speed limits should be followed to the letter when possible.

  4. The left lane is for passing only, and also, if you are in that lane and not passing and someone cuts you off or rides your bumper, that is fine.

  5. If someone does not make room for you and you need to come over (and properly signaled) you can cut them off guilt free.

  6. I can break some of these rules (or others) but other drivers should not.

  7. Any other possible driving scissor statements?

If you'd like to be mad at me: Yes, Yes, No, Yes with qualification, Yes, No.

edit: I remembered that the electric unicycle community actually keeps a record of every single death (doable since there are so few of us). Looking over the list might be illustrative about what's actually liable to cause fatalities since it's possible to actually know the exact ratio of what causes deaths. Excluding the unicycle-specific stuff (cutouts, battery fires) most of these deaths seem to feature traffic going in a single direction and then things getting squirrely and the rider veering off course. The one big exception is the car that went too fast through a stop sign in a rolling stop. As a consequence I'll amend my opinion of rolling stops to specify that to qualify as a rolling stop the vehicle should be moving at a speed that's strictly unlikely to cause a fatality even if a collision actually happens. I've been hit by a car while on my bike at something like 5-10 mph and just walked it off, no biggie, so that's probably the threshold.

You should turn on your turn signal every time you switch lanes or otherwise would be expected to use it, even if nobody is around.

Yes. Trivial effort and keeps you in the habit.

Stop signs and red lights need to be fully stopped at, even if nobody is around and you know there isn't a red light camera.

This should be two different questions because red lights and stoplights are used in significantly different contexts. Red lights tend to be on busier intersections with faster traffic. If you want to go straight, you should always stop and stay stopped even if there is no other traffic around because the consequences of screwing up are very likely to be death. Though it you want to do a right turn (on a road where it's legal to do so) then it's acceptable to do a rolling stop instead of a full stop, due to that being intrinsically safer-- if traffic hits you, it's unlikely to be a head-on colission, and if they were coming from the opposite side (for example because of a left-turn signal) then an accident will happen in lower speeds.

Stop signs are used more in quieter areas with smaller speed limits. rolling stops are acceptable if no one is around.

Speed limits should be followed to the letter when possible.

No, because speed limits are deliberately set too low with the expectation that they will be moderately violated by even law-abiding citizens, so that cops have a pretext to stop people who are driving at the "optimal" speed for a given area but in an unsafe manner. As proof, in my state you don't even receive any penalties for going up to 5 over, so the speed limit is really "speed posted plus up to 5mph" which is much more reasonable. Going faster than that is also acceptable if done temporarily while passing-- reducing how much time you spend in a truck's blindspot is ultimately safer for everyone.

The left lane is for passing only

No for city roads. Yes for highways with some caveats-- if the road quality is much worse on the right side, or if you're going to an exit that's on the left side, or if no one is around anyway, it's okay to be in the left line.

if you are in that lane and not passing and someone cuts you off

Douchebaggy in proportion to the level of aggression and danger in the cutoff, but acceptable in many cases. Ideally they should have found a safer way to merge in but like... I get it.

or rides your bumper, that is fine.

No. Bumper riding is always unsafe and unnecessary. (And also, illegal-- I got written up for following less than two bumper lengths once. Lawyer got it dropped though, always plead to transfer to a nonmoving violation haha.) That's especially the case when it's at night and your headlights might be shining into their rearview, blinding them and preventing them from safely getting out of your way. People with either eventually figure out that they should move to the right, or alternatively if they're being assholes on purpose being an asshole back is just likely to cause an accident.

If someone does not make room for you and you need to come over (and properly signaled) you can cut them off guilt free.

Ideally, you should slow down instead and merge in behind them. But if that's not possible for whatever reason, and your merge won't require them to slam on the brakes, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. (You should probably still be a little guilty though.)

I can break some of these rules (or others) but other drivers should not.

Everyone should be expected to break these rules in a situation where that maximizes the overall safety of driving. And at the same time, everyone should be driving so as to minimize the need for others to break these rules, and not doing so forfeights the right to complain in inverse proportion to how safe other drivers are while violating these rules.

scissors statements

On quieter streets with good visibility, it's okay to U-turn like a motherfucker at any provocation.

Every driving test should include a LIVE segment on understanding and using hand signals. Aside from cyclists, I've seen cars use these when their turn lights are off.

Motorcyclists should be allowed to legally split lanes. (But if they die, they die.)

This is very similar to my opinion, which leads me to believe that at one point or another you drove a lot, possibly even paid to do so.

Naw, I just have the right combination of impatience, paranoia, and astigmatism.