This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
So, is AI coming for the programmer jobs? There's a news story in my country about Microsoft seeking redundancies globally which probably means chopping jobs here as well, and one paragraph mentions AI:
Granted, that seems to be trimming jobs across management and admin rather than software engineers, but the little nugget about "up to a third of programming is now done by AI" does seem to be a straw in the wind. Yes? No? Just means they're not hiring new junior staff?
If anyone thinks ChatGPT is ready to replace programmers then just like... ask it to build some software for you. Enough to run a sustainable business. It's ready to be an employee, ok then, go employ it. That's free money for you that's just sitting there for the taking.
I worry about the ladder effect. In that, devleopers will be pulling the ladder out behind themselves.
Say you need a low-level coder to help support a more experienced software developer. You might just tell the developer to use AI instead of hire a kid out of college. AI will be better than 80% of kids out of college after all.
But AI can't do what that Software Developer does, and perhaps it never will. Ten years later, you have seasoned developers retiring and who is there to replace them? All the kids with CS degrees had to turn to menial labor and no one got that experience needed to take over the Software Developer's position.
But if you're a future-oriented company who thinks long term, and you say, "I'll hire these CS people so they get trained," you are at a disadvantage against your competitors for years, and there's no guarantee that the guy you hired will stick with you after the job market for seasoned developers tightens.
I imagine the presumption is "by the time the old warhorses retire, we will have developed AI that is even better than they ever were, so we'll just go on pulling ourselves up by our bootlaces".
I think, no matter what, there will need to be someone who is held accountable for the actions of AI. A human who can be jailed, fined, or fired if something goes wrong. But will that person be in a position to actually tell if the AI is producing bad product if they never gained the "on-the -ground" skills that people earn through practice?
I'm unlikely to be fined, jailed, or fired even if I write some seriously fucked up code. The CEO may be fired, and the company may be sued, but neither of those entities knows what my day to day looks like.
(From your link)
"It highlights the dangers of engineer overconfidence[2]: 428 after the engineers dismissed user-end reports, leading to severe consequences. "
This is AI-coding in a nutshell.
AI coding is neither necessary nor sufficient for engineers to dismiss end user concerns. I've seen this sort of thing going on for years in big companies, though fortunately not for anything life critical.
Sorry, I was unclear. I was agreeing with you. Furthermore, I was saying that vibe-coding / AI coding often falls into exactly the trap I quoted.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link