This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
(And here I thought I was a doomer)
This is a plausible scenario. It isn't necessarily the only way this could play out (did I ever mention we could all die?).
Most industrial societies today are willing to spend resources for the upkeep and care of the economically unproductive, or even those who are outright deadweights. The disabled, the very elderly, the mentally ill. We expect just about nothing back from them. (There are political concerns, but even so, the majority opinion is definitely not mandatory euthanasia, it certainly wouldn't poll well).
I have, in the past, explained at length that the expense of keeping every single human alive today in absolute luxury is negligible to a post-scarcity society like the ones full industrial automation and ASI can produce. A Kardashev 1 has about a thousand times our present energy budget, all 8 billion humans could live like kings.
If there is any altruistic impulse in those that hold the reins, then it really isn't a meaningful fraction of the light cone to keep at least us chumps happy. Doesn't mean they have to make us peers, or true equals, in the same manner the Saudi King doesn't hand out his own allowance to goat-herds. Such a life, well, I'd take it any day over what we have going right now, even if it's not optimal.
Maybe Bezos, Musk and Altman are bickering over galaxies or super-clusters. I'd be content enough with one of the hundred billion star systems in the Milky Way. I'd settle for a planet. That really isn't much.
Besides, a future of utter disempowerment or death isn't set in stone. We're literally building the machines today, it's not too late to make sure that they're programmed in a way that beats this very low bar.
But even so, this is a very small population of any first world economy. What percentage are we talking about? Maybe 10% at the high end of all adults over 25 are unable or unwilling to work. When AGI replaces humans like automobiles replaced horses, it will be 99% who serve no purpose other than pets of one form or another. Our track record when an animal is not useful to us is absolutely horrifying— at best the herd dog becomes a pet and the horse becomes a pet that is used for tricking or pleasure riding, and the population of both of those shrinks by quite a bit. For animals that cannot be domesticated or that humans don’t fins attractive enough to turn into pets, the vast majority end up on the endangered species list. That’s been the record of how humans deal with living things they don’t find useful. I don’t know how rational it is to expect that humans will suddenly start caring about several billion people globally who are only useful as cute little legacy humans that maybe entertain the elites for a time.
But the median non-human animal is probably a termite whose population size is measured in the zillions of myriads, not some endangered species. Because many of these species are un-extirpatable(see rats, cockroaches, etc) and others are beneath our notice but benefit strongly from us(pigeons etc).
Maybe, in the event that AIdoomers aren't just huffing, there will be tribes of feral humans living in the now abandoned wastes, farming and fishing and whatnot. Maybe feral humans will be tapped into the automated powerplants, and this is as beneath skynet's notice as the squirrels in your attic. Maybe AI will write pocket articles about 'what to do when a tribe of feral humans camp between the cooling towers of your datacenter'. I told chatgpt to write that article, actually. Suggestions included decoy towers.
This only works until AI decides to turn the whole planet into computronium. Which will take, what, a couple of years, tops? The Sun is big, but superintelligences will not spare Earth a little sunlight; we need to shut it all down.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link