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Yeah, that's the bet all western jews are making. They think Israel is going to fall someday, and their political opinions are often a sublimation of that basic choice. Some take it one way, some take it the other, but it's just pre-survivor's guilt.
This is how the jewish people have survived thousands of years without a country.
While I am sure that there are some Jews who carefully select their country of residence based on minimizing the chances of being genocided, I am positive that for many, other factors (employments, economics, existing relationships) play a more crucial role.
My subjective mental model of the median US Jew is not "these fools in Israel will get themselves murdered again" but "having a state which is guaranteed to accept Jewish immigrants in a world where countries sometimes expel their Jewish citizens is a nice fallback solution, and we should support Israel for that reason even if we do not have a compelling reason to move there."
I don't know any Jews well but those that I'm acquainted with are very concerned about escaping the genocide that is just around the corner despite all evidence. Maybe Jewish history has naturally selected for having a backup plan.
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I know a Jewish family that has carefully acquired and maintained multiple passports across generations rather openly based on the lived experience of their parents (and grandparents, and great grandparents) during WWII. The cynics would say "rootless cosmopolitans" here (and maybe there is an element of that), but having heard their Holocaust stories second-hand, I see why they care so much.
WW2 affected more people than just jews.
This brings up feelings similar to when I see news stories from Ukraine of all their African migrants fleeing the country. A bunch of brown fighting age men who suddenly aren't Ukrainian like the others. All rhetoric of unity and shared humanity thrown out the window for a train ticket out of there. So they can, presumably, do the same song and diversity dance someplace else.
At the risk of invoking a meme around here, "What did you think 'Never Again' looked like? Vibes? Essays? Poetry?"
Of course it potentially meant finding or making a safe place for themselves and investing in defense spending to be too thorny to tangle with again. That mentality clearly seems to explain how they interact with parties that call for their deaths regularly (see the Houthi flag, for example). Many of those calls come from Muslims, but I'm not sure they like Richard Spencer any better.
But that 'Never Again' thread runs in other groups too: see defense spending in Poland and Finland, arguably China and Korea too. Or why you shouldn't ask the South American with a German last name when their ancestors moved to the New World (not always 1945, but it's common enough).
I'm inclined to agree with you. There is 'hatred' in many nations regarding past wars. But that's between nations.
To change perspectives, how one can say they are part of a group with a righteous feeling of anger, fear and vengeance against another national group whilst still claiming to be an equal national to that group strikes me as peculiar. Similar to how some advanced progressive/liberal/leftists manage to order their politics in such a way that brown people can do no wrong.
It is necessarily the case by dint of these emotions that there is a difference. How one would categorize or order that difference is up for debate, but that's where it starts.
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Are you suggesting German Jews should have proven their loyalty by fighting for the Reich? That wasn't really on the table for them.
They weren't migrants, they were German citizens, until they weren't, and they weren't given the option of proving how German they were.
No. How did you reach that? The point where jews could make inroads with Germans had long passed them by.
I'm suggesting that Russians, Lithuanians, Poles, Latvians and Ukrainians for example, don't carry 12 different passports in case of another war, despite being victims of WW2.
There are no "inroads" they could have made with people who hate Jews for being Jews. You are implying there was a rational reason for Germans to hate them and want them removed or exterminated.
That's because they have a country that isn't going to suddenly decide they don't belong there.
A convincing case has yet to be made that Jews are simultaneously unreasonably paranoid, disloyal, and also do not deserve to be considered fellow citizens and got what was coming to them.
Except, you know, that millions of eastern Europeans literally did find themselves in that situation at various times between the end of WWI and 2022.
I get what you're trying to say but altered borders so that Russians find themselves outside Russia, or Poles outside Poland, has been a pretty constant problem.
Yes, people get displaced by wars, but if you get what I'm trying to say, you know that this is different category of problem and not something that happened to them because their countrymen decided they weren't countrymen.
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You are implying the people in question were simply deranged and hated jews for being jews. Which is a sort of backhanded otherization rhetoric that would not fly in any other context. Most principally for being an obvious lie. But also for just being silly. Denying others a theory of mind to make your case just means you don't have a case.
Historically, this is just not true. And more pertinent to the topic, sometimes it's not their own nation that's doing the deciding. Acting like the predicament many jews found themselves in during WW2 is any worse than that of many civilians in the aforementioned nations is invalid.
You can't both be a citizen and also exempt from service to the nation if the concept of a national is supposed to hold any relevance. This rings especially loud after decades of diversity propaganda where everyone is touted as an equal national. If your alleged co-nationals are hoarding passports they certainly do have a different view on the nation and their membership. If you want to verbalize recognition for that fact using hyperbolic thought ending rhetoric... fine. But you are certainly not looking for rational discourse when doing so.
Oh, they weren't "deranged." Jew-hatred is centuries old. I realize you're in the "There's a good reason for that" camp, but like everyone else who says this, you never do more than wave at Jewish Communists and other Jewish leftists and imply that this is evidence of some inherent nefarious characteristic of Jewishness.
Were Jewish citizens of Germany exempt from national service?
You sure loved that anecdote about a few Jewish families with a dozen passports, but how common do you think that is, really? Do you think the average Jew (in America or elsewhere) has a dozen passports and is ready to flee the country if it faces a threat? Do you think Jews would flee in greater numbers than others? If a Jew doesn't have multiple passports and has in fact served in the military, do you regard him as a co-national like yourself? (Have you served?)
Random rhetoric expressing nothing.
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For one, citation needed. Eastern Europe might be behind the current trend, but the current trend definitely is that Europeans have no particular claim to Europe and deserve less rights than immigrants.
For another, this reminds me of the claim that gay men are so prone to promiscuity because they've been denied marriage, and that giving it to them will moderate their behavior. Hasn't worked out for gay men, and the results for Jewish people are kinda mixed. I don't think Israel as a country or Israelis as a group, on average, can reasonably be described as "not paranoid".
NGOs like ADL are also not helping the perception about Jewish people living in other parts of the world. Admittedly this skews results quite a bit, since normal Jewish people aren't going to open an NGO devoted to showing how normal they are, and how they just want to get in with their life. Either way I don't see it as straightforward as you're describing it.
I think this is hyperbole, and to the degree that it's true, is it less true of European Jews?
That seems like a pretty specious comparison. I would agree that Israelis are paranoid, but they literally are surrounded by people who are out to get them! As for other Jews, well, they know people like our resident Jew-haters are around, loudly proclaiming what they think of Jews and less loudly implying what they'd like to happen to them. Are you paranoid if there really are people out to get you? And yet the vast majority of Jews are not "rootless cosmopolitans" with a dozen passports.
Jews have historically generally been pretty leftist and involved in leftist organizations, including pro-immigration organizations. Is that because they hate white people, or because their religion tends to be a liberal-leaning religion? The "impression" that Jews are all disloyal parasites because of the ADL is no different from any other generalization constructed by taking the worst attributes of the worst people in the group you don't like and claiming they define the very character of that group.
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