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No. How did you reach that? The point where jews could make inroads with Germans had long passed them by.
I'm suggesting that Russians, Lithuanians, Poles, Latvians and Ukrainians for example, don't carry 12 different passports in case of another war, despite being victims of WW2.
There are no "inroads" they could have made with people who hate Jews for being Jews. You are implying there was a rational reason for Germans to hate them and want them removed or exterminated.
That's because they have a country that isn't going to suddenly decide they don't belong there.
A convincing case has yet to be made that Jews are simultaneously unreasonably paranoid, disloyal, and also do not deserve to be considered fellow citizens and got what was coming to them.
Except, you know, that millions of eastern Europeans literally did find themselves in that situation at various times between the end of WWI and 2022.
I get what you're trying to say but altered borders so that Russians find themselves outside Russia, or Poles outside Poland, has been a pretty constant problem.
Yes, people get displaced by wars, but if you get what I'm trying to say, you know that this is different category of problem and not something that happened to them because their countrymen decided they weren't countrymen.
I understand what you're saying, I don't really see it as a different category of problem. Germans and Poles and Russians and Ukrainians have all experienced living in places for centuries only to find that the government of that place suddenly no longer considered them citizens. So did Russian aristocracy, Cambodian bourgeoisie, East African indians, hell millions of Americans have arguments around this.
This seems like another special pleading case where the Holocaust is considered particularly exceptional and gives the designated descendants of the victims a gold card to break norms that everyone else is expected to observe.
Either way the argument that the Holocaust justifies paranoia doesn't really absolve anyone of anything. If I'm dating a girl and she refuses to commit because "she's been hurt before," I'm not obligated to tolerate it and consider her a loyal girlfriend despite her disloyal behavior. Commitment is commitment, and mixed loyalty is mixed loyalty, even if it is justified paranoia rather than pure avarice.
I don't think the Holocaust is exceptional as far as genocides go. All genocides are horrific. But the Holocaust happened and it was a genocide, and genocides aren't the same as other war displacements (even if leftists today like to call everything a genocide).
I'm not really interested in horse-trading and baby-splitting about what you think constitutes a war displacement and what constitutes a genocide, how many need to die before it constitutes a genocide rather than "ethnic cleansing with the hallmarks of genocide" as Poland's parliament termed the massacre of over 100,000 Polish civilians in Volhynia during the end stages of WWII by Ukrainian nationalists who wanted to make sure that those areas would be part of the "correct" country at the end of the war.*
But I'm not sure what the point of this argument you're making is. What is the upshot here of the Holocaust being different? What impact does it have on the world today, in terms of how people should or do act?
I don't even think Jews, generally speaking, are any more likely to maintain multiple passports or loyalties than anyone else in America, curving for differences in social class, education, urban/rural split. It's a common affectation.
As an aside, accusations of hypocrisy against Jews regarding Israel/Palestine are often misplaced. Highly detailed demographic breakdowns on the NYC mayoral primary show that Zohran Mamdani won a plurality of all Jewish voters in the primary, and 67% of Jewish voters under 45 (he finished second among Jews over 45). The astroturf campaign trying to paint Mamdani as anti-semitic is mostly driven by and targeted at non-Jews.
*Learning about this really changed my view of the Nazis, in the sense that I'm still confused by the idea that the Nazis didn't actually have that tight of control over the interior of the Ukraine, that the Ukrainian Insurgent Army could still have weapons and congresses and stuff.
And also that the Ukrainian Insurgent Army would have weapons and use them on the Polish rather than on the Germans OR the Soviets! On the one hand, it's almost a kind of grimly admirable focus, there's a sort of cold-blooded truth to it: their actions did change the borders of Poland and Ukraine on a permanent basis. But it's just unimaginable to me, I'm American, I consider all racism not based on US census categories to be so junior varsity as to be pointless. Don't they realize they're all just non-hispanic whites?
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You are implying the people in question were simply deranged and hated jews for being jews. Which is a sort of backhanded otherization rhetoric that would not fly in any other context. Most principally for being an obvious lie. But also for just being silly. Denying others a theory of mind to make your case just means you don't have a case.
Historically, this is just not true. And more pertinent to the topic, sometimes it's not their own nation that's doing the deciding. Acting like the predicament many jews found themselves in during WW2 is any worse than that of many civilians in the aforementioned nations is invalid.
You can't both be a citizen and also exempt from service to the nation if the concept of a national is supposed to hold any relevance. This rings especially loud after decades of diversity propaganda where everyone is touted as an equal national. If your alleged co-nationals are hoarding passports they certainly do have a different view on the nation and their membership. If you want to verbalize recognition for that fact using hyperbolic thought ending rhetoric... fine. But you are certainly not looking for rational discourse when doing so.
Oh, they weren't "deranged." Jew-hatred is centuries old. I realize you're in the "There's a good reason for that" camp, but like everyone else who says this, you never do more than wave at Jewish Communists and other Jewish leftists and imply that this is evidence of some inherent nefarious characteristic of Jewishness.
Were Jewish citizens of Germany exempt from national service?
You sure loved that anecdote about a few Jewish families with a dozen passports, but how common do you think that is, really? Do you think the average Jew (in America or elsewhere) has a dozen passports and is ready to flee the country if it faces a threat? Do you think Jews would flee in greater numbers than others? If a Jew doesn't have multiple passports and has in fact served in the military, do you regard him as a co-national like yourself? (Have you served?)
Random rhetoric expressing nothing.
That's not true. There are certainly a lot of good examples on the left of what many take issue with when it comes to jews and behavior that is demonstrably negative to others. Which also demonstrates a very vicious spirit against the other. But that's not my evidence for anything other than that. There are bad people and negative psychological expressions in all population groups. The distinction is where it manifests, how and why. My main underlying point would be that jews are highly ethnocentric and seemingly unaware of their own biases in a way that can become very damaging if left unchecked. As many jews have demonstrated.
I doubt it, but since my examples don't relate to the position of jews within Germany during WW2 I don't know why I should care.
Probably rare, which is why my point was highlighted by immigrant groups in Ukraine running away from conflict. The point wasn't about jews in particular but the phenomenon of outside population groups reaping the harvest and then leaving when it's time to till the field.
Do you think these questions are relevant to anything I've said? To the only tangentially relevant point, last time I checked, jews were very underrepresented in the US armed forces.
Yes, my questions are relevant to what you said. You are making arguments that Jews aren't "real" citizens because they don't show loyalty to their nation, and when I point out where this is untrue or where their nation literally unpersoned them, you say that's not what you're talking about. Sorry, you don't get to talk about only the very specific Jews who fit your generalizations.
Jews are somewhat underrepresented in the armed services in the US. Blacks are greatly overrepresented. Is this because Jews are less patriotic, and therefore blacks are more patriotic? Or is it because most Jews have better options than joining the military, and many blacks do not? Or will you find a convenient way to choose one from column A and one from column B?
As I've just said, the point wasn't about jews in particular but the phenomenon of outside population groups reaping the harvest and then leaving when it's time to till the field.
Some people feel like jews have a special case to plead regarding this, but I disagreed. Noting how many different people suffered in WW2, not just jews. Meaning jews don't have a special case to plead. You try to ignore this point by asking about jews in Germany, when in reality my point stands regardless of those particular circumstance, as the suffering of jews in Germany does not trump the suffering of Europeans elsewhere. Whose governments did plenty to get them into an early grave.
Not everyone is equally patriotic, not everyone shares the same understanding of what a nation is. But there is a very visceral line drawn in the sand that demonstrates that at some point you don't really qualify as a national. Or that your ideation of what a nation is was never serious beyond the self serving justifications of a parasite wanting to leech off it's host.
You claim I made arguments that jews aren't real citizens and that's just a lie. I made no claims in that direction whatsoever beyond stating that the jewish family that is hoarding passports reminds me of that visceral line drawn in the sand of brown fighting age immigrants fleeing Ukraine.
Maybe you feel the need to police any potentially negative connotation relating to jews, for whatever reason. Or maybe it's something else. But don't lie about what I've said or what I mean or try to drag the conversation into a direction that justifies your compulsion.
Well, that's a bad thing to do, agreed. Glad you didn't mean Jews, since all your other posts sure looked like you were talking about Jews, until I pointed out to you that this is not and has never been true of Jews, and suddenly you aren't talking about Jews anymore. Very odd, but glad that's straightened out.
Well, yes, I'd argue equally that you could hardly condemn German Catholics, Gypsies, Slavs, etc. for being "unpatriotic" for failing to serve the Reich when they were being put in camps. You're absolutely right, this didn't only happen to Jews!
I suppose this is true. Still a little confused about who you mean, since you're not talking about Jews.
Not a lie, just confusion since, you know, you keep talking about Jews until when pressed and your examples are shown to be specious, you inform us you didn't mean Jews. Still a little confusing, but I'll take your word for it that you were in no way implying that Jews are less patriotic, loyal, or entitled to be considered full citizens and fellow nationals as anyone else.
This is a very odd thing to accuse me of, since I talk about lots of things besides Jews, whereas I'd say the vast majority of your participation in any thread anywhere is about Jews. So unsurprisingly, when we interact, it tends to be about Jews.
But since we've cleared up that misunderstanding about what you think of Jews, I look forward to seeing what else you can contribute!
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For one, citation needed. Eastern Europe might be behind the current trend, but the current trend definitely is that Europeans have no particular claim to Europe and deserve less rights than immigrants.
For another, this reminds me of the claim that gay men are so prone to promiscuity because they've been denied marriage, and that giving it to them will moderate their behavior. Hasn't worked out for gay men, and the results for Jewish people are kinda mixed. I don't think Israel as a country or Israelis as a group, on average, can reasonably be described as "not paranoid".
NGOs like ADL are also not helping the perception about Jewish people living in other parts of the world. Admittedly this skews results quite a bit, since normal Jewish people aren't going to open an NGO devoted to showing how normal they are, and how they just want to get in with their life. Either way I don't see it as straightforward as you're describing it.
I think this is hyperbole, and to the degree that it's true, is it less true of European Jews?
That seems like a pretty specious comparison. I would agree that Israelis are paranoid, but they literally are surrounded by people who are out to get them! As for other Jews, well, they know people like our resident Jew-haters are around, loudly proclaiming what they think of Jews and less loudly implying what they'd like to happen to them. Are you paranoid if there really are people out to get you? And yet the vast majority of Jews are not "rootless cosmopolitans" with a dozen passports.
Jews have historically generally been pretty leftist and involved in leftist organizations, including pro-immigration organizations. Is that because they hate white people, or because their religion tends to be a liberal-leaning religion? The "impression" that Jews are all disloyal parasites because of the ADL is no different from any other generalization constructed by taking the worst attributes of the worst people in the group you don't like and claiming they define the very character of that group.
It's not written into law, if that's what you mean, but both the actions and public statements by European governments are not consistent with equal protections under the law.
Sort of, in that you could get away with saying things about Europeans that you would not get away with saying about Jewish people... but it's also true there's been a spooky shift in public sentiment lately.
But either way, by your logic, all this should mean is that Europeans should also be collecting passports.
Not sure if that's worse than all the talk of dismantling white supermarket cisheteronormative capitalist patriarchies, especially that anti-Jewish sentiment is still yet to reach the heights of power that the anti-cis-het-white-men sentiment is spoken from.
If that was the reason, I'd expect them to be at their mist liberal where they are most religious, and I'm seeing the opposite.
...not what I said.
First of all I literally finished off with saying that judging Jewish people by orgs like the ADL will leave you with a skewed view of them, but more importantly: where did I say anything about disloyal parasites? I gave the ADL as an example of Jewish paranoia, and no amount of "people out to get them" justifies the levels of finding Nazism in ham sandwiches that they engage in.
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You are vastly underselling this- the thrust of Jewish influence in all areas of American politics and culture has been enormously weighted towards social movements advocating for non-whites and social criticism of white culture, religion and racial identity. From Hollywood to Academia to the NGO apparatus, these criticisms and cultural movements defined the Twentieth century. But then Israel comes along and violates every cultural theory and social norm Jews have advocated among Gentiles for a century, the sheer hypocrisy is too much, they won't get away with it without both the American Left and Right abandoning them. The lack of introspection among Jews and Israelis is astounding, they always blame everyone else in the entire world except for their own behavior.
It is very, very easy to see why the cultural and social movements that Jews spearheaded for the past 100 years is in undeniably stark contrast with Israeli geopolitical ambitions and Israeli treatment of the Palestinians. The sheer hypocrisy is the cause of the seismic shift in opinion on Israel and proliferation of anti-semitism, not unavoidable historical circumstances.
I thought criticism of Israel wasn't the same as criticism of Jews. It's interesting how they're distinct or the same group depending on the convenience for your current line of attack.
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