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Don't know why I'm stumbling on this post from /u/satirizedoor now a year later and nearly two years after the original post that I made. I still call myself vegan, but I do eat oysters now. I have come to find most vegans, including my past self, as annoying as you: there is a lack of real reflection as to what the goals of the movement are, and if the individual actions that vegans advocate are actually effective at accomplishing those goals. Total cessation of animal suffering is as impossible as it would be totalitarian (some vegans advocate for GMOing away all predators). Some amount of meat eating will always be part of human culture, and is frankly, indistinguishable and perhaps better than what goes on in the wild. My problem in reality is with industrial factory farming. It would be far better for these animals and the planet if we merely advocated for reduction in meat consumption, but that position isn't really justifiable outside of utilitarianism. Most people are not utilitarian I think, which makes it difficult to advocate for a position that fails on consequentialist/deontological grounds. The fact is that some people don't think animals have moral worth, while others do. There's very little ability to reason across that line, despite pretty good scientific evidence that most farm animals do have some rudimentary reasoning and emotional abilities equivalent to that of a small child. To vegans like myself, this evidence is helpful but rather superfluous. My beliefs about animal consciousness come from personal interactions I've had with animals. For those who aren't vegan, evidence of reasoning and/emotional reactions isn't sufficient evidence of consciousness or moral worth. Being able to solve puzzles or display emotions isn't very good evidence that there's something going on inside of another creature.
I'm still convinced that veganism isn't harmful for performance, at least in endurance sports. Plenty of endurance athletes at the highest levels are at least mostly vegan. However, I think that performance enhancement is a different question that I don't think has really been settled scientifically. There are without a doubt certain plant-based substances that are performance enhancers (beet juice), but I don't think this says anything about the efficacy of the diet as a whole. A cycling YouTuber that I vaguely follow, Dylan Johnson is vegan for recovery reasons, as plant-based diets are apparently much less pro-inflammatory than meat-based diets. I can't say I'm fully convinced by this: I think the real culprit in inflammation may be macronutrient ratios. Diets high in fat, which many vegans also have, seem to be particularly pro-inflammatory, at least in animal models. There's also good evidence that high protein consumption is linked to decreases in lifespan, but again this isn't exclusive to meat-eating populations.
I am more shocked by how skewed most user's idea of a healthy body weight is. I'm closer to 160 now, but a 150 with a height of 6' put me at a very normal BMI of 20. I recognize that this weight makes it very difficult to be a strongman, but that's not my goal, nor the goal of most Americans. It is an absurd position to tell me that I am a twig or emaciated at that weight when I am well within the bounds of a healthy BMI.
I don't care about the moral worth of non-human animals, if they didn't want me to eat them, they should have been less tasty.
On a more serious note, I have no innate preference for cruelty, I simply do not care. If lab-grown meat (or even meat substitutes) tasted just like meat, and were cheaper, I'd eat them with equanimity.
I have a cousin in the UK who is a vegan, initially to get laid (his ex was vegan), but apparently the moral draw remained. He's stuck fast to it, even if his current soon to be fiancé is merely vegetarian. He's not preachy, when we meet, he makes sure to look for mutually acceptable options, and I have no issue with his lifestyle. I can see it makes his life significantly harder, but that's his choice. I introduced him to an Indian friend of mine in Edinburgh, who started lecturing him on nutritional deficits. I pointed out that he looked perfectly healthy to me, and if there were the kinds of serious issues he was positing, the man would have been dead by now. Each to their own, and me to a plate of bacon rashers please.
Veganism is fine for adults but there is med literature on how it stunts infants and kids due to nutrient deficiencies
This claim is lacking in nuance.
My understanding of the scientific/medical consensus is that a well-planned vegan diet isn't harmful to kids. (I pray that even the most committed vegan mom doesn't refuse to breast feed her child on those grounds, but then again, people try to make their cats vegan).
This represents an additional challenge, you have to be very careful to ensure that your kids don't end up missing B12 etc. It is simply easier to feed them the same stuff everyone else eats and not worry about it too much. In other words, a quantitative instead of qualitative issue.
I looked up a bunch of citations, but I'm too drunk/busy to format them. I will dig them up later if you really want them.
Im sure with perfect adherence to a special diet plan you are correct, but as someone in the medical field I’m sure you’re aware there’s a wide gap between recommended use and typical use of anything. Typical vegan diets are not healthy for kids, and typical vegan diets are what the modal vegan kid is eating. Studies show the typical vegan kid is stunted, and that’s a bad thing.
It’s not good for the elderly either, where veganism is associated with risk for bone fractures, sarcopenia, anemia, and depression.
Maybe all of this could be eliminated with the perfect vegan diet. Maybe Real Veganism Has Never been Tried. I don’t really care, I only care about what empirical works for most people.
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Breast feeding is vegan according to most vegans as the mother is consenting to having her milk taken.
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