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Notes -
To anyone who has discussed the issue with pro-Ukraine people.
Why do people support Ukraine fighting against Russia, with a strange militaristic fervor, instead of supporting surrendering / negotiating peace?
Anglin makes the points that:
-the war is severely impoverishing Europe due to high energy costs
-the war is destroying Ukraine ( population + territory / infrastructures / institutions)
-continuing the war increases the chances of a world war
Is it cheering for the possible destruction of Russia?
Something to do with the current leadership of Russia, anti-LGBTQ, pro-family policies?
Is it about the 1991 borders of Ukraine, issues with post-Soviet Union border disputes?
Notion that 'if we don't stop Putin now he will never stop no matter what'? Is it something about broadly standing up against aggression of one state vs another, supporting the 'underdog'?
The issue with that one which seems to be central to Alexander's March 22 post is that there isn't much that seems capable of stopping Russia.
Sending another 100k Ukrainians to the meatgrinder for that end seems a little bit harsh coming from people with very little skin in the game.
Just signaling what they are told is the correct opinion?
Is it about saving face, sunk cost at this point?
What would be the best case scenario for a Ukraine/State Department victory?
To my understanding, Putin is not the most radical or dangerous politician in Russia, and an implosion into ethnicity-based sub-regions would cause similar problems to the 'Arab Spring'. Chechens for example would not appear very West-friendly once 'liberated' from Russia.
Not only that, but economic crisis in Europe could generate additional security risks.
Speaking for myself: Russia and russians, present company excepted, creep me the fuck out. Something about the way they talk. It's outright alien. Call it racism if you like, but letting Russia gain more influence in Europe is no more appealing to me than letting China or wokists do it.
This is not something that I would have wanted a war to start over, but now that the war is already on I really can't see a scenario in which Russia gets its way as desirable.
What's more: Ukraine is ours now. It may not have been previously, and it's not worth much to us in practical terms, but sides have been taken. The fact of being on the same side is more strongly binding than any rational justification for war or peace.
Combine all of that with the general anomie of the West and why the hell shouldn't we want for the war to continue? Losing wealth? We still have lots to spare, and the excitement is worth it. Playing into America's hands? Maybe, but the US is NATO and NATO is golden. NATO is what kept Europe from being one big East Germany, or worse, one big Ukraine.
East Germany is still Germany.
You can't have Europe without Europeans. NATO has been turning Western Europe into one big American city, and they have a tendency to spontaneously combust.
That's not NATO, it's the people of Europe being infected by fitter memes. Look around - all the people of the world are attracted to them, including Russians.
By fitter memes do you mean American or Islam?
American in this instance.
The way I see it Islam is also fitter than European culture, but more through its demographics and politics than by outsiders wanting it.
There is some data suggesting that in the general population Islam is losing ground to beliefs and attitudes more aligned with current Western culture, e.g. irreligiosity is increasing and fertility rates are declining.
This might reverse in the long term with the rise of subgroups who are immune to Western memes and might outcompete mainstream society by way of better birthrates, but as far as a timeline of e.g. 50 years into the future is concerned I'd be pretty confident in predicting that we will see a Middle East where the societal importance of Islam greatly declines. This is entirely anecdotal and subject to selection bias, but from my dealings with Gulf Arabs I've got the impression that they're more concerned about Ronaldo and Messi than Sharia Law.
Aye, but that's the Global-American meme winning out, not the specifically European one, is it?
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