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A recent event that I’m sure fully counts as culture war is the official removal in Odessa of the monument to the city’s founders, mainly Catherine the Great. The justification, which is rather easy to predict, is that Catherine was a perpetrator of Moskal imperialism who repressed Ukrainian patriots (supposedly they already existed back then), committed cultural genocide and erased Ukrainian nationhood (which obviously we’re also supposed to believe existed back then). There isn’t much to comment on this, I think (though I’ll again point out that Odessa would never have existed in the first place without Catherine), but an educated redditor was eager to point out* the curious fact that the removed monument is actually a replica erected in 2007, largely as a response to the events of the so-called Orange Revolution, as the original was removed (and supposedly destroyed) by the Soviets in 1920. So yes, it was originally removed as an imperialist relic, by powers that the Ukrainian authorities claim later perpetrated genocide specifically against Ukrainians because they were Ukrainians i.e. it was an incident between opposing factions of Ukraine deniers. This is where we’re at, which actually doesn’t surprise me that much because I believe we’ve been in a clown world for a long time.
*https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/zyccgk/catherine_the_great_statue_taken_down_in_odesa/
The monument to Catherine was demolished because Catherine the Great is associated with Russia. One should not look for some philosophical or historical meaning here. It's just a symbolic gesture against a pile of copper.
Again, she is the founder of Odessa. This is yet another farce.
If a gulag had a statue of Stalin, did he somehow gain a permanent right to the spot? The current residents have every right to kick that to the curb. Statues aren’t sacred, and the bar to remove them can be lower than “some people who like her are bombing us now.”
Huh? What kind of parallel is that?
Stalin founded a bunch of gulags. Catty founded Odessa, apparently. I’m fine with the current residents of either sort of site deciding their statues are gauche.
It's baseless to compare forced labor camps that haven't existed for decades to cities that still stand.
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So? Did Odessa disappear in a puff of historical consistency?
All that "legacy" is for Ukraine right now is a casus belli for Russia.
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What does that have to do with the people of Odessa wanting nothing to do with her today?
A lot, as otherwise they wouldn't have their city.
Hundreds of towns and cities were founded all over former USSR during Stalin's time.
Should statues of the big moustache man be built in each of them?
Were such statues erected there? If yes, are there still there, or were they removed on grounds that they are affront to the national heritage of the locals?
Statues of Stalin were built all over USSR and "brotherly countries" (without consulting the people), and were removed after 1956 (also without consulting the people).
Should they be brought back? If so, everywhere or only in cities founded by Stalin?
Is there even a city where Stalin was specifically commemorated as its founder?
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Do you think the city will vanish once the statue is gone? Are statues like vampires, in that if you destroy one, the cities they spawned also die/revert?
That's not what I said, and you know that.
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According to Wikipedia, there had been a settlement in the area already during Crimean/Turkish rule. Catherine was who renamed it Odessa.
Yes, a settlement that wasn't Ukrainian in any sense of the word but (maybe) geographical, which was a fishing village transformed into a port city and naval base.
Ok so you would be totally happy if Ukrainians demolished the whole city and port alongside the statue?
Not particularly, but that'd surely be consistent though.
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This is such a goofy argument that's pretty clearly a result of motivated reasoning. Does ordering a city be founded at a particular location give a person some unassailable claim to have their statue there for all eternity? If you honestly think it does, you need to do a lot more work to back up that assertion. Statues aren't just some note in a history book. They're meant to glorify a particular historical figure. Given Cathy's association with Russia, and Russia's current actions against Ukraine, it ought to be pretty understandable why the people of Odessa don't want to glorify the leader of a nation that's currently terror bombing them and engaging in war crimes left and right.
Yes. Absolutely. And of course.
Frankly I find the opposite opinion very strange. Honoring creators and founders is probably one of the most ancient and universal traditions of humanity.
War propaganda is extremely petty in comparison.
Founders of cities are honored with a statue if they're seen as honorable, not just because they happened to found a city.
If Hitler happened to found a city somewhere in occupied Russia during WW2, do you think Hitler is entitled to have a statue of himself in that city forever?
And if Mao Zedong happened to create shelters for dispossessed landlords...
...no, wait, he has done exactly the opposite.
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Unironically, I do.
Hell I think he already deserves to be honored for his few but important good deeds or generally as an important historical figure even though he did great evil. And that's coming from someone who despises all forms of totalitarianism. I see no more reason to destroy his statues as I do Lenin's. Who is as great and terrible a man in many ways. Nazi iconoclasm seems more a feature of boomer mythical truth than any reasoned view of history if you ask me.
Kayne might have said it extremely poorly but I think he was right on that. It is good (and most importantly Christian) to be able to use forgiveness to separate good and evil in the legacy of all men.
But this is all besides the point, Catherine the Great wasn't Hitler.
For a more relevant example, was it not silly to rename Tsaritsyn to Stalingrad?
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Yes, any city dedicating a statue to its founder and leaving it to stand is a completely self-evident course of events. There's no need to back that up.
People disliking people murdering them is very natural. Disliking things associated with murderers is also generally obvious.
As demonstrated by Odessa residents it is not, where it was removed with broad local support.
That's just great. So the founding of Odessa was an irrelevant sidenote to Catherine's rule, and what's actually important is that she is "associated with murderers" (huh?). This is basically comedy level. Was the Russian government supposed to condemn the dissolution of the Zaporozhian Sich (which is supposedly Catherine's main great crime committed against Ukraine) in order to undo that association, or what?
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Saying something is "self-evident" is not an argument. There's a difference between noting who the founder was in something like a history book, and glorifying the founder as a statue. Many cities have uncontroversial statues of their founders if their founders were seen as noble individuals.
If Hitler happened to found a city somewhere in occupied Russia during WW2, do you think Hitler is entitled to have a statue of himself in that city forever?
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The people of Odessa seem to hate Russian imperialism more than they are grateful for the one time she demanded a city be built on their soil. The city of Odessa is in its inhabitants and its people, not in the empress who decreed that specific spot get a city one day.
So I reckon they'd prefer to live in village shacks as barbarians (also in the original sense of the word) - i.e. not in a city - than to suffer that statue to stand?
As they have option to keep city while not honouring Russian ruler, why this would be relevant at all?
Also, it is not like city would not be founded there or nearby sooner or later.
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You don't believe they do, and I won't pretend you believe so either. Come on.
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You're proposing a nonexistent dichotomy in the first place.
There is no law that forbids toppling statues of founders once they are no longer aligned with the current ideology/national myth/what have you. You're not owed your legacy forever and ever, deal with it.
Vandalism is morally reprehensible. I think that's a universal enough maxim to be natural law even.
I mean the fifth commandment is right there. Destroying the legacy of the dead for temporal power might be popular but I think it's ridiculous to argue that there is no principle proscribing such behavior.
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I wouldn't have been born without Lord Trevelyan, that doesn't mean my options are to either hang myself or a portrait of him.
Does he have a statue anywhere? If yes, it's a valid argument to start.
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