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To remove myself from the object details of which I am sure others have debated fruitlessly for decades at this point, let me bring up the example of the conspiracy theory that the Americans faked the 1969 moon landings, and that Stanley Kubrick was involved in the sci fi performance of the century.
Suppose it is actually true, for the sake of argument. First of all, who would actually care?
The Soviets wouldn't care. (They wouldn't be around.) The Americans faking the moon landing didn't stop them from doing the MIR-Spacelab spacewalks, or the Russian Federation from participating in the ISS. The revelation wouldn't make the USSR un-collapse.
Would the Chinese care? Maybe a little. No one, since the Americans, have made a manned moon landing. In fact, the landing being revealed to be a fake might induce a second space race, which would be actually a good thing.
Would Elon (and the private sector as a whole) care? Would they stop trying to make rockets, because of a Kubrick landing? No.
In fact, the only people that would actually care about this, in terms of real-world impact, would be the conspiracy theorists themselves. And it would prove what..? That the US government lies? Uh, that might be a few decades behind the popular zeitgeist, with that one.
(~)
Even if you give Holocaust deniers their premise out of the gate, it doesn't change anything in the real world. The 1948 Arab-Israeli war was real. The 1967 Six-Day War was real. The Yom Kippur War was real. The 2nd Intifada was real. 10/7 was real. In short, the Israel national mythology no longer requires the Holocaust to be true in part or in whole. The fact that it is true is historical trivia now, only of interest to historians, autists, and racists of a certain kind.
There seems to be a persistent belief amongst anti-semites of every stripe that once the normies are awoken to the Jewish Question, there will be a spontaneous uprising of sentiment as all Jews everywhere are cast out for... what, exactly? Exaggerating war crimes inflicted upon them? Making them up, whole cloth? Isn't that what every people have done, in the modern period? If they could only present their case, then the Yahuds would be driven out, and Israel would spontaneously combust, or something.
Uh, no. That won't happen. Seriously, no gentile cares. (Well, the Jews and Arabs certainly would. But that's another question entirely.) Because debating the Holocaust is Fucking Pointless because, right or wrong, it is now an academic subject and is not worth your time or energy. The only people who care about revisionist history are weirdos in any case - hoteps with black beethoven, feminists with their omnicultural patriarchal conspiracy to suppress female achievement. It's all retarded and anyone with sense keeps away from it.
They wouldn't be able to tell you your society MUST accept an unsustainable number of immigrants or else it's the holocaust 2.0 all over again. It would be a serious blow to the current globalist view that people are interchangeable fungible worker asset to be moved around at their whim. It would help rekindle further nationalistic and ethnic cohesion.
The modern holocaust deniers don't really much care how many jews or if any died in the holocaust, they have current day grievances with the internationalist machine and work their way backwards to who is pushing the ideas (critical race theory, abolition of nation states, gender studies, feminism) and become "radicalized" vs the people who they see time and again at the center of the clusterfuck.
I'd rebut your point in that pro-Palestine leftists who hate Israel's guts and even low-key subscribe to Arab conceptions of Holocaust denial are still all-in on globohomo immigration. Proving the Holocaust didn't happen won't stop the flow of Muslim migrants even if you kick out the Jews. There is no tactical or strategic benefit to be gained from tilting at this windmill.
They'll stop being my Realpolitik adversaries when they stop doing everything in their power to oppose a movement based on existential needs.
crushedoranges wasn't telling you to stop considering them you realpolitik adversaries. He was telling you that, in fact, wasting energy on Holocaust denial is not good realpolitik.
The Jewish political machine organizes itself through an oppressor/oppressed narrative, which makes Holocaust denial somewhat analogous to disputing the King's bloodline.
Because we live in a progressive-dominated society where these narrative frameworks carry legitimizing weight, if you view yourself in opposition to this machine then opposing these becomes the pragmatic approach regardless of their veracity.
Yes, that's great, let's do that.
Just, please, let's do it without relitigating over and over in how far the exact mechanisms of mass killings in WW2 worked or didn't work. Can we instead just declare the whole topic a nullity and move on?
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But Jews do have mountains of legitimate oppression to derive intersectional street-cred from, with or without the Holocaust. Without even going into pre-WWII antisemitism, the best that Revisionists can do to exculpate Nazi Germany is claim that the so-called death camps were actually just more labor camps. That is, the worst that they can do to Jews' stock of victim-points is to say that Hitler enslaved them rather than exterminated them. Newsflash, "past enslavement" seems to be plenty enough victimhood to get by in the progressive stack, judging by blacks.
Intersectional street cred is not granted based on legitimate claims, but effective opposition to white heritage Americans - a largely philosemetic group without whose support the Jewish political machine would not be able to operate.
Well sure, but if you think it all comes down to whether the "Jewish political machine" is able to generate support regardless of the facts, then the factual accuracy of the Holocaust narrative is still moot. A political machine with the capacity to spin an ostensibly nonexistent genocide into goodwill should, by all rights, be perfectly capable of spinning actually-real enslavement into an equivalent amount of goodwill.
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Yes, I think those people think that if everyone awakens to it being a lie, they'll be outraged to do what the denialists wanted all along, to kick out the Jews and to enact a Christian government and to either stop helping or actively destroy Israel. That's not what happens with other historical injustices. Did the youths, upon learning of the Trail of Tears, immediately start a wildly successful campaign to decolonize California? No, of course not, though it does seem like the anti-colonialists have been picking up some more steam lately on... something.
That makes me wonder: what is the future of Holocaust denial? And, what is the future of antisemitism in general? Does it die off in the new generation in America? I was surprised to find out recently that young people in China are actually okay with LGBTQ+ representation, and it's only the older generation that doesn't like gay people. I predict the same thing will happen with holocaust denial. I'd guess, if it's true that it only became mainstream in the 70s or the 80s or so, then it was specific to people who lived at that time, generally.
I am not convinced that Holocaust deniers want a Christian government or state. If nothing else, when I've talked to the Motte's own local Holocaust deniers, they tend to respond badly to professions of Christian faith - Christianity is perceived as just another head of the Jewish hydra, and believers are taken in by the racial mythology of a foreign group.
As a group of people, no, they don't want that. I'm talking about a very specific kind of Holocaust denier, the one that I have to deal with myself, and my example is the podcast I linked in the OP. That's two dudes called Corey J. Mahler and Treblewoe. Corey J. Mahler keeps getting banned off of Twitter, so my favorite posts about Adolf Hitler being the "last Christian king" are difficult to find. For how fringe they are, they still really like the LCMS, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and keep getting into fights with its leaders or something because they don't want it to become corrupted.
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