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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31233 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 9, 2023

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and is countered by point that Russia invaded Ukraine with the premeditated intention to set up filtration camps and start kidnapping, killing, and otherwise abusing pro-Western Ukrainians as a matter of policy

Well, (a) this isn't very charitable, given that Russia's stated aim is denazification and prevention of crimes against humanity against Russo-Ukrainians, and (b) even if all Ukrainian-US propaganda is true and Russia really is capping any Ukrainian who ever looked fondly at an EU / NATO flag... there is always more brutality to be had. Daring Russia to sink even lower by engaging in anti-Russian dehumanisation will not, I think, have the long-term salutary effect Halla thinks it will: any Ukrainian lives saved from acceleration in victory are likely to be more than counterbalanced by Ukrainian lives lost from the incrementally more brutal Russian counterreaction.

Well, (a) this isn't very charitable, given that Russia's stated aim is denazification and prevention of crimes against humanity against Russo-Ukrainians,

Russia's stated aim is irrelevant to charity. Russia's revealed aim and policies have included multiple crimes against humanity that do amount to international standards of genocide, and in line with Russian narratives justifying such on the rejection of the legitimacy of Ukrainian nationhood.

and (b) even if all Ukrainian-US propaganda is true and Russia really is capping any Ukrainian who ever looked fondly at an EU / NATO flag... there is always more brutality to be had.

The Russians will be brutal regardless, and will continue to be brutal over any Ukrainian territory they control both now and potentially in the future.

Daring Russia to sink even lower by engaging in anti-Russian dehumanisation will not, I think, have the long-term salutary effect Halla thinks it will: any Ukrainian lives saved from acceleration in victory are likely to be more than counterbalanced by Ukrainian lives lost from the incrementally more brutal Russian counterreaction.

That's an interesting claim, considering Russia retains maximalist war goals that are not limited to 'just' the 4 claimed sub-regions, let alone the occupied areas.

I don't think it's intellectually fair to use the word "genocide" (which most people associate with the physical extermination of people) in relation to a situation where children from an orphanage in Mariupol are sent to an orphanage in Russia.

Do you consider restrictions on the study of the Russian language in eastern Ukraine a genocide?

The Russians will be brutal regardless, and will continue to be brutal over any Ukrainian territory they control both now and potentially in the future.

Probably the exact opposite is true. Russians will not be cruel to the local population no matter what, because they consider the local population to be Russian.

Russians will not be cruel to the local population no matter what, because they consider the local population to be Russian.

Unfortunately for the Russians, the Ukrainians get a say as well and it is very clear that they do not consider themselves Russians, in fact they are willing to kill and die over this very point.

The Russians will be cruel because reality conflicts with what they have imagined it to be.

But in all honesty this explanation is not needed either way, the Russians will be callously brutal institutionally and commit random acts of cruelty individually, because that is an intrinsic component of the Russian way of war. My source for this claim is the past hundred years of Russian military history and the enduring hatred towards Russia from the various peoples who have come into conflict with them.

clear that they do not consider themselves Russians, in fact they are willing to kill and die over this very point.

Well, this is definitely not true for Donbass or Melitopol.

Where we see both people who are ready to kill in order to NOT be Ukrainians and people who are generally loyal to the Russian government.

rom the various peoples who have come into conflict with them.

I would be interested to know which countries improved their opinion of each other after the war.

Well, this is definitely not true for Donbass or Melitopol.

Where we see both people who are ready to kill in order to NOT be Ukrainians and people who are generally loyal to the Russian government.

Did you read it on Grey Zone?

EDIT: you can argue about Donbass (never been there), especially LDNR. But I lived for a long period of time in a small town on the coast of Azov Sea, an hour-long drive from Melitopol, I generally know attitude of people there.

I left Lugansk in 2014. It is strange how someone does not understand that all the people there sincerely hate Ukrainians. And yes, the East of Ukraine has always been pro-Russian. Lviv raguli - of course not.

And yes, the East of Ukraine has always been pro-Russian.

Do you think that this really can be said to apply now?

Don't know. For the last 6 years, I have interacted with Ukrainians only on 2ch, and even then rarely.

But I think that having the opportunity to choose and not being afraid of reprisals from the SBU, the majority in the east would prefer Russia. Russia is corny richer, less crime, better infrastructure and government, and no one would have to change either their culture or their language.

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