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PaperclipPerfector  1d ago (text post)   7012 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 8, 2025

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I'd agree that for better or worse the 'capital T' Traditional world is dying. I think an important factor that's often overlooked is that the ubiquitous preindustrial peasant sustenance economies that dominated almost the entire globe 200 years ago are gone entirely or radically diminished today in Europe, America, East Asia and increasingly the developing world as well. Most old religious and cultural traditions were made by and for people who lived in in societies that were arranged very differently from ours, and these traditions served the needs and aspirations of the people who lived in these types of societies.

Obviously there are differences; Rome isn't Babylon, which isn't the kingdom of Mercia, which isn't the Delhi Sultanate etc. However, there are some very broad comonalities in premodern agricultural societies that dont apply to today. We aren't as subject to the seasons or time of day for our livelihoods anymore. Our lives arent determined by the will of a military aristocracy. Corvee labor isnt really a thing. I feel that if the spirit of our traditions is to continue into the future, it will need to confront and interact with the world we have, not the one our ancestors did.

For a tradition to survive it needs to retain its core foundational ideas, while simultaneously adapting its teachings and doctrine to the industrial world and really decide what they want to integrate vs discard. Are vtubers haram? Maybe. Is launching a nuclear war moral in X or Y circumstance? Maybe not. But I think that having these sorts of ready made answers would be a massive boon for most religions, even if the rulings are arbitrary or rely on esoteric theology.

I'd agree that for better or worse the 'capital T' Traditional world is dying. I think an important factor that's often overlooked is that the ubiquitous preindustrial peasant sustenance economies that dominated almost the entire globe 200 years ago are gone entirely or radically diminished today in Europe, America, East Asia and increasingly the developing world as well.

This. How would modern "trad" society look like? How would modern industrial infrastructure, both hard and soft, run on traditional feudal principles? I am not aware of any trad engaging with this question at all.

How would modern industrial infrastructure, both hard and soft, run on traditional feudal principles?

I'd say, start with looking at the UAE and at Imperial Japan — the latter in particular shows combining rapid industrialization with predominantly feudal social structures. (I'll also remind people that the majority of marriages in Japan were arranged — either by families or through the traditional omiai matchmaking system — all the way until the late 1960s. I also recall at least one author comparing the lifetime employment, and loyalty to the company, of the 1980s Japanese salaryman to the feudal fealty of their ancestors a century or so prior.)

Now, I know people will argue that the UAE only works because of oil — I've encountered proponents of strict "deterministic" correlations of political forms and technological abilities who've baldly asserted that "the moment the oil runs out" every single modern building in Dubai will literally crumble into dust and the population will be "back to riding camels and living in 1800s conditions the very next day."

As for the criticisms I get on Japan as model, I must once again note that there is a huge difference between "you can't mix feudal social norms with industrial technology because social and technological determinism make them fundamentally incompatible and doom the attempt to collapse from the internal contradictions" and "you can't mix feudal social norms with industrial technology because the US will bomb you into submission if you try."

(Also, I might add that you're just not reading the right sci-fi.)

Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary both went through phases of industrializing without that much added social liberalism; of course they lost a war so we can’t see how the experiment would’ve turned out.

It's worth noting Dubai isn't that dependent on oil and has successfully diversified according to Wikipedia only 5% of Dubai's revenue comes from oil.

True, but the GDP Abu Dhabi, which makes up more of the UAE's economy than Dubai, is still predominantly based on oil exports. Whether Dubai's wealth is sustainable or not without Abu Dhabi's economic engine is still in question.

I'd agree that for better or worse the 'capital T' Traditional world is dying. I think an important factor that's often overlooked is that the ubiquitous preindustrial peasant sustenance economies that dominated almost the entire globe 200 years ago are gone entirely or radically diminished today in Europe, America, East Asia and increasingly the developing world as well. Most old religious and cultural traditions were made by and for people who lived in in societies that were arranged very differently from ours, and these traditions served the needs and aspirations of the people who lived in these types of societies.

Extremely good points! Yeah even the metaphors and language in the Bible is very focused on those types of cultures. Having to answer all these complex questions certainly seems to have overwhelmed church hierarchies.

The rapid pace of technological advancement also seems quite difficult to keep up with when trying to promote a careful solution that fits with centuries of dogma and other teachings.

I have no idea what lends credence to his argument. The exact opposite has been shown to be true since the end of the 20th century. Fukuyama's 'End of History' thesis was laudably ambitious but most societies that were wrapped up in his prediction went the other direction by almost 180 degrees. They greatly retain and drew their ideas for economic and technological development from their historical traditions. Japanese manufacturing for instance did that with Zen Buddhism in the 20th century at the same time people were declaring the triumph over tradition. Technology has hardly supplanted tradition and I think it's unlikely it will in the near future either.

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