site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 16, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The latest abortion kerfuffle is decently well in the past now, and we've had a number of good threads on it in various places. I think it's a reasonable time to ask here:

Have you changed your personal opinion or political position on abortion access at all over the course of the last year or so? If so, to what, and based on what?

I had been pretty default pro-choice, having been basically a 90s libertarian. I feel like I've moved a little bit in the pro-life direction. Reasons:

  • This article detailing how abortion access actually works across the first world. It seems to be significantly less accessible than the seeming American / Feminist default position of on-demand all the way up to birth across the rest of the first world.

  • Among left-wing activists, they seemed to have moved from the previous default of "safe legal and rare" to being proud of abortions, shouting them from the rooftops, and openly advocating for as many of them as possible. This seems sick to me.

  • A thought I had that doesn't seem to want to go away: If you're actually raising a child, would you tell that child at some point in their life that you had had an abortion previously? What would you expect them to think of that? Children can be really annoying and inconvenient at the best of times. Virtually all of them will be imperfect in some way. The reason why we give children unconditional love is because they are so extraordinarily dependent on their parents and they know it, so they're naturally terrified at the idea of being abandoned. How can a child expect that from you once they realize that you basically killed your previous child because it was inconvenient? Oh, we didn't have a good job and weren't sure how we would support ourselves - does that mean that once you actually have a kid, if you lose your job or get in an accident or things get tough some other way, it's bye bye kiddo? Okay so you don't tell them. Unless they manage to find out some other way. Or maybe just don't do something that you'll never be able to tell your kid?

This article detailing how abortion access actually works across the first world. It seems to be significantly less accessible than the seeming American / Feminist default position of on-demand all the way up to birth across the rest of the first world.

No compromise breeds no compromise. Supporters of abortion rights know well that pro-lifers do not want "reasonable regulations", but want to ban abortion completely at any place and time (and then move to ban contraception, pornography, "sodomy", race mixing and everything else they see as immoral).

The same in gun politics - gun right supporters know well that anti-gunners do not want "reasonable gun control", but ban everything that looks like gun (and then move to knives and all sharp instruments, like in UK). If you compromise with the uncompromising, you always lose.

Among left-wing activists, they seemed to have moved from the previous default of "safe legal and rare" to being proud of abortions, shouting them from the rooftops, and openly advocating for as many of them as possible. This seems sick to me.

Again, the same with guns. Instead of fudds who just wanted to shoot Bambi, you got hard core gun nuts openly carrying big scary black rifles. This seems sick to gun controllers, and this is the point.

This is a massive strawman. Do you really believe that there's a meaningful number of pro-life advocates who want to ban race mixing? Do you for that matter believe that there's even close to a plurality that want to ban contraception(no, the government not giving condoms to middle schoolers is not a ban on contraception)? Even Texas has committed to keeping the morning after pill on the shelves.

This is a massive strawman. Do you really believe that there's a meaningful number of pro-life advocates who want to ban race mixing

I don't believe there was a meaningful number of 1750s voting-reform advocates who wanted 18 year old non-landowning born-out-of-wedlock black women to vote.

But that's where we ended up by following (the coherent extrapolated volition of) their 1750s logic.

So the answer to your question is "No, but I know a slippery slope when I see one"

I don't believe there was a meaningful number of 1750s voting-reform advocates who wanted 18 year old non-landowning born-out-of-wedlock black women to vote.

But that's where we ended up by following (the coherent extrapolated volition of) their 1750s logic.

So the answer to your question is "No, but I know a slippery slope when I see one"

Yes. We do not have to extrapolate anything - we see slippery slope in practice.

As for guns and weapons in general, we all know example of UK. Were gun controllers satisfied with making Britain gun free? No, they moved forward to knives and other sharp instruments.

What is next in line? Logic says it will be martial arts and fitness training. You got rid of guns, you got rid of knives, why should you let people got to gyms and turn their hands and fists into murder machines?

If it saves only one life, it is worth it.

As for abortion and "Christian morals" in general, we see Poland. Abortion ban with small exceptions was passed, and as time moves, the law is tightened more and these minuscule exceptions are rolled out.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/10/22/polands-constitutional-tribunal-rolls-back-reproductive-rights

And so go other "moral issues".

If you really wanted to minimize murder of innocent babies you would encourage gay sex as much as possible - no danger of unwanted pregnancy here. Of course, we all know it is not about saving lives, it is all about ending sin.

s for guns and weapons in general, we all know example of UK. Were gun controllers satisfied with making Britain gun free? No, they moved forward to knives and other sharp instruments.

Britain is not gun free let alone knife free. Much of my family have shotguns for example, my cousin is a sport shooter and has multiple rifles. Handguns are mostly banned it is true but that is not the same thing as guns in general being banned. And mostly every kitchen has enough knives to murder a few people were you so inclined.

The UK has significantly more restrictions than the US, but guns are not banned, let alone knives. You do need to get the appropriate license or certificate but you are very likely to be able to get a rifle or shotgun license as long as “they require their firearm on a regular, legitimate basis for work, sport or leisure (including collections or research)”

Some of my in-laws live in a rural area, plus I spent a lot of time around the culture while trying to buy a cocker spaniel puppy raised in a shooting household - I can confirm that rural shotgun culture in the UK is as strong as rural gun culture in other countries, and that shotgun licenses are easy to get. The rules are designed to discourage using a shotgun which is owned for sporting purposes as a home defence weapon (you have to store the gun unloaded, with the gun and ammo in two different locked compartments), but 100% of the rural gun owners I spoke to planned to shoot a burglar if the opportunity arose. Armed farmers were generally aware of the Tony Martin case, and thought that he shouldn't have been convicted, but also that they were not in danger from the law because they wouldn't be as stupid as Tony Martin (who had already lost his gun license in a separate incident to the one he was jailed for for shooting at a moving getaway car).