This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Are food allergies another aspect of the culture war? I was reading Reddit and a person was feeding 100 people and someone mentioned to make sure you have all the allergies/food restrictions covered. Being honest I’ve never met anyone with a food restriction I can think of except a lot of brown friends who won’t eat sausage but also have no problem with alcohol.
Ancient religions had a lot of restrictions, now Im borrowing this from elsewhere that the rise of food restrictions is just the same thing as ancients banning certain foods as holy acts. I’ve long argued that the culture wars are less of a culture war and more of a religious war and dietary restrictions are just a modern form of Jews and Muslims banning pork/shellfish etc and Catholics not eating meat on fridays. All religions seem to have focuses on eating and sexual rituals.
I know mental illness has far higher rates amongst lefties. My guess is dietary restrictions and food allergies are much higher in lefties and if your not in that religion it’s something you never think of.
I definitely think some people's dietary restrictions have the form you describe, as being some kind of personal belief about the rightness or wrongness of eating certain things (vegetarianism and veganism seem like the obvious example). On the other hand some things (like allergies) don't really have this character. If my friend has a peanut allergy so severe that eating them will cause anaphylactic shock and possibly death, that seems qualitatively different to something like veganism. When I am accommodating someone's allergies like this it's because I don't want to maybe kill them! Which seems like a very reasonable thing to do, and their request seems quite different in character to anything that could be called a "holy act", nor does their motivation for the request seem comparable to religious requests.
Agree on peanuts.
Some vegans seem to fall into the group of girls who want to be skinny (somewhat red tribe). But predominantly blue tribe. The meat only thing I guess is red tribe as it’s macho anti environmentalism thing. Meat only Im going to assume are heavy maga. Gluten’s and all those things are probably primarily the things I’m thinking about.
Further on Peterson the right is less religious than they once were so getting a subset inventing new diets like meat only would be a form of right religion too. Personally when I’ve looked at the science I’m open to ketone supplements having benefits but my understanding of human biology is it can handle anything but the system works best when it doesn’t need to turn protein into carbs or carbs into proteins.
The big categorical difference I think is as state expecting others to follow.
Does seem to have the same divides as elsewhere of the blue tribe being more feminine.
To perhaps bring this back to more familiar Culture War ground I think the desire to accommodate dietary restrictions springs from the same place as the desire to use preferred pronouns: the perception that it's the courteous thing to do, that it would be rude to do otherwise. Underlying this is a belief that society ought to change in certain ways to accommodate individuals living their lives the way they would prefer to, and that we as individuals have some responsibility to create that space for others. Exactly what we should accommodate in what circumstances is a question on which underlying theories differ but I think this is the general motivating principle.
ETA:
After reading some other replies I'm wondering how much of a left/right divide on social issues is about who, when, and how has an obligation to accommodate others. It seems to me right-coded non-libertarian positions tend towards the individual having an obligation to alter their behaviors to conform with wider society while more left-coded positions tend towards society (really other people) altering so as to accommodate individuals.
I think this is an astute way to generalize it and I'm glad someone put it in a less boo outgroup framing. It fits nicely with the often smug "Just be a good person" frustration I hear from progressives when there is pushback against what for lack of a better term I'd call pathological inclusiveness. For the most part it's fairly harmless - 99% of the time the people hosting dinner parties that have to accommodate every currently conceived allergy are progressives themselves and they get a kind of pleasure out of being accommodating. It plays into their self image as a good person to readily take on these tasks for others and I've long since learned never to tell a woman who wants to do something for me that they shouldn't bother.
This also fits into a thing I often have trouble articulating about why it's sometimes difficult to argue against this class of progressive values. On the abstract level I think my position is correct but when you're in a room full of progressives and the topic of trans people come up everyone else is affirming and validating how much of a good person everyone else there is for supporting trans people it's very difficult to speak up and say "Hey actually I don't think this whole trans thing is such a good idea, have you considered the epistemic problems with differentiating between the qualia of correctly or incorrectly believing you are a different gender" people do not say "hey that's an interesting point I haven't thought of before, let me think about it and we can have an open discussion". They say "hey man, why are you being an asshole? You made Astra cry and feel unsupported. People kill themselves because of people like you".
It's nearly impossible to penetrate this kind of love bombing with unpleasant truths. And on the meta level it incentivizes the exact grievance porn that I so often perceive of the left. Progressive type people see themselves as helping the downtrodden and it's deep in their self conception that they're the type of person that helps the downtrodden, but they've also formed an immune system against even questioning claims of being downtrodden. From my perspective they're doing the equivalent of giving a kid as much sugar as they ask for, each extra spoon full is the kindest path in the moment but it's a road to diabetes paved with good intentions.
Anyways I've rambled a bit but thank you again for putting this the way you have, it's allowed some things to click for me.
I think there are a few different things going on in the social interaction you describe.
I think you're giving the average trans-supporting progressive too much credit (or maybe expecting too much). I doubt they have a fully worked out theory of gender and its metaphysics, epistemics, etc. I'm someone fairly steeped in trans academic literature and I'm not sure I do! Their understanding of trans issues is not necessarily part of a fully theorized conception of gender, its more likely a surface understanding that they use to get by with supporting their friend. The purpose of the beliefs isn't necessarily having a complete theory of gender, it's understanding what their friend needs to feel and be supported, because they care about their friend.
The social context of the discussion is also important. Imagine you were at the gym with some friends. One of your friends is going to try for a new one rep max, they're going to lift some amount of weight they never have before. So all your other friends are hyping your one friend up, telling them they can do this, they've got it, etc. Then you interject with a comment describing how, based on previous lifts, they probably can't do it and may injure themselves. Your comment may be true and correct but I can see how people would think the comment was unwelcome. The conversation that was occurring had a particular purpose that was not necessarily saying true things, but hyping your friend up and making them feel better. Similarly if the purpose of the conversation involving your trans friend was to comfort or support them, I can see how a comment calling into question those acts may be unwelcome. This isn't to say such comments are never appropriate. If you were having a dispassionate discussion with your friend about what their one rep max should be, or about how or whether to support trans individuals, such comments may be appropriate but it is very much a social context thing. I'm sure this can be a frustrating experience, especially if you rarely or never have the conversations on topics you want to have that are relevant to those conversations you do have.
It seems a bit hyperbolic to say progressives have an immune system to claims of being downtrodden. I can think of several groups that progressives would (and do) not believe when they claim to be downtrodden. Rather, progressives may be too focused on claims of being downtrodden based in history as opposed to the present. Though, I believe most groups progressive regard as downtrodden today have a pretty good case.
The tough love drill Seargent/coach that tells the recruit what he needs to hear is a beloved character.
Much more so for red tribe/conservative types than blue tribe/progressive types, in my experience. The latter often perceive that archetype as just being an asshole.
Agreed, and it fits with the whole ‘conservatives want the government to be daddy, liberals want the government to be mommy’ meme from the late 2000’s. Red tribers are simply a lot more comfortable with being unpleasant for the sake of something more important, and view it that comfort as an important part of being an adult. By contrast, blue tribers tend to see making those kinds of decisions as the sort of thing that should be solely up to the individual, and not subject to pressure.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link