This “ugh, just soooo boring” thing is clearly an act and an attempt to shut down discussion. People try the same tactic with HBD. Just collapse the comment tree if it bothers you, otherwise you aren’t convincing anyone with this “so tiresome” tactic.
The truth is, the Holocaust is clearly highly relevant to American CW issues. Clearly many people on the Motte get very upset about revisionism, the way many SSC posters get viscerally angry at HBD. SecureSignals is not spamming about it, just responding when it is brought up and he generally brings more evidence to bear than his opponents (yea, I understand the Epistemic Learned Helplessness issue, doesn’t change it)
Amadan
"I would put a screwdriver through your eyeballs if I could"
Misembrance 1yr ago
This “ugh, just soooo boring” thing is clearly an act and an attempt to shut down discussion.
No, it's eye-rolling boredom. I can't speak for everyone else - some people are really upset at revisionism. I find it noxious, but I also find it tedious in the same way JB was tedious. To the degree it bothers me, it's more "Not this again" than "How dare you?"
To the degree it bothers me, it's more "Not this again" than "How dare you?"
It reminds me a lot of that "could God microwave a burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it?" meme I remember being popular a long time ago. There's just enough substance in that statement to grab people who never heard it before (and it's not like it isn't funny, either), but it subtly breaks the community down over time as the bar for "meaningful and insightful contribution" sinks lower every time someone posts it.
It's still low-effort even if it's done serially; sure, write a long post through a book if you must, but you only get to burn that bit of social capital once. Blame the tech if you must- the unwritten community rule that you need to have iterated upon your past thoughts can't reward effort if that effort is higher than just being limited to the conversation at hand is not helped by the fact this is a significant limitation of the Reddit-style discussion forum- but these are the only tools we have so this'll have to do.
It doesn't hurt that (like the above meme) HBD and Dajooz get bonus points for being argument-terminating in and of themselves- they're prescriptive arguments, not descriptive ones. Which is the meta-level justification for the "no enforcing consensus" rule anyway- sure, at the end of the day, all arguments are prescriptive (or else we wouldn't be making them), but you aren't allowed to make them directly because the entire point of this place is, well, seeing how a prescriptive argument might arise.
Put another way, there's no game of chess if you resign in the first move because you're playing black, and it's pointless if your community exists to study gameplay strategies- even if black loses every time, it's still a case study in how to play white. Ignoring it "because black loses" is not just boring; skipping to the end misses the point entirely.
FCfromSSC
Nuclear levels of sour
Amadan 1yr ago·Edited 1yr ago
No, it's eye-rolling boredom.
Concur. The topic is a looping kaleidoscope of fractal tedium, where the factual questions are so thoroughly swamped by the social dynamics as to smother the slightest spark of interest. With the exception of trolls and zealots, one does not participate in such a discussion because it is actually interesting, but because one feels compelled by the social dynamics involved, whether to defend the free expression of the nakedly repugnant, or to argue against assertions not because the facts are in question, but because failing to answer looks weak or complicit, or for a hundred other unpleasantly compulsive reasons.
The only winning move is not to play, but even that is spun to social arguments by the trolls and zealots. And it never ends, over and over across the years and even decades.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This “ugh, just soooo boring” thing is clearly an act and an attempt to shut down discussion. People try the same tactic with HBD. Just collapse the comment tree if it bothers you, otherwise you aren’t convincing anyone with this “so tiresome” tactic.
The truth is, the Holocaust is clearly highly relevant to American CW issues. Clearly many people on the Motte get very upset about revisionism, the way many SSC posters get viscerally angry at HBD. SecureSignals is not spamming about it, just responding when it is brought up and he generally brings more evidence to bear than his opponents (yea, I understand the Epistemic Learned Helplessness issue, doesn’t change it)
No, it's eye-rolling boredom. I can't speak for everyone else - some people are really upset at revisionism. I find it noxious, but I also find it tedious in the same way JB was tedious. To the degree it bothers me, it's more "Not this again" than "How dare you?"
It reminds me a lot of that "could God microwave a burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it?" meme I remember being popular a long time ago. There's just enough substance in that statement to grab people who never heard it before (and it's not like it isn't funny, either), but it subtly breaks the community down over time as the bar for "meaningful and insightful contribution" sinks lower every time someone posts it.
It's still low-effort even if it's done serially; sure, write a long post through a book if you must, but you only get to burn that bit of social capital once. Blame the tech if you must- the unwritten community rule that you need to have iterated upon your past thoughts can't reward effort if that effort is higher than just being limited to the conversation at hand is not helped by the fact this is a significant limitation of the Reddit-style discussion forum- but these are the only tools we have so this'll have to do.
It doesn't hurt that (like the above meme) HBD and Dajooz get bonus points for being argument-terminating in and of themselves- they're prescriptive arguments, not descriptive ones. Which is the meta-level justification for the "no enforcing consensus" rule anyway- sure, at the end of the day, all arguments are prescriptive (or else we wouldn't be making them), but you aren't allowed to make them directly because the entire point of this place is, well, seeing how a prescriptive argument might arise.
Put another way, there's no game of chess if you resign in the first move because you're playing black, and it's pointless if your community exists to study gameplay strategies- even if black loses every time, it's still a case study in how to play white. Ignoring it "because black loses" is not just boring; skipping to the end misses the point entirely.
More options
Context Copy link
Concur. The topic is a looping kaleidoscope of fractal tedium, where the factual questions are so thoroughly swamped by the social dynamics as to smother the slightest spark of interest. With the exception of trolls and zealots, one does not participate in such a discussion because it is actually interesting, but because one feels compelled by the social dynamics involved, whether to defend the free expression of the nakedly repugnant, or to argue against assertions not because the facts are in question, but because failing to answer looks weak or complicit, or for a hundred other unpleasantly compulsive reasons.
The only winning move is not to play, but even that is spun to social arguments by the trolls and zealots. And it never ends, over and over across the years and even decades.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link