This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
But isn't it the exact opposite?
Ok, maybe not the exact opposite. But it's more complicated than any 2D schema would suggest.
Leftists are not anarchic chaos agents. In fact committed leftists are inordinately concerned with order, justice, fairness, morality, and so forth. "We must stop Trump at all costs to defend American democracy" is order, not chaos, even if you think it's an order that's based on faulty reasoning and ulterior motivations. "Yeah let's let the reality TV star become President and see what happens" is chaos. Ironically, self-identified anarchists often have a fetishistic preoccupation with structure, discipline, and power. The responsibility for actually enforcing this discipline is "distributed" (or so they claim) in order to avoid individual culpability, but the underlying structural dynamics are clear.
The dream of Marxism is a fully transparent social order grounded in pure reason. It's irrational that billionaires get to own multiple yachts while there are still people who can't afford medical care. We can use our brains to figure out a more fair way to distribute resources, instead of leaving it up to the irrationality of the market. There are no limits to what the unfettered human mind can accomplish. That's the basic impulse.
Of course, you might start to question how "rational" your opponents really are, if you think they're tenaciously holding onto premises that are incoherent or have been falsified. But, naturally, they would just turn that back at you and say that you're the one who's reasoning from incorrect premises. So we're back at square one.
Rejections of leftist utopian ideals are ultimately grounded in a rejection of the infinite power of reason: there are limits to how much reality can be rationally known and managed, there are things that can't be controlled or changed, etc.
(And while we're on the subject of Jordan Peterson: femininity is obviously order, and masculinity is obviously chaos. Wild how many people get this wrong.)
On a similar note, progressives accept the teachings of the Church (known colloquially as "academia" and "the media") at face value. Conservatives think the Church (academia and the media) are corrupt and self-serving, and instead favor more localized self-study of scripture and reports. The former helps with message discipline, keeping everyone aligned to Current Thing, and it saves a ton of mental effort if you can just read the headlines and trust that the contents prove the description - presuming the Church is trustworthy, as all good and decent people do. The latter is a much higher variance approach, producing shining spots of brilliance and insight in the midst of broad swathes of "How the fuck did you come to that conclusion?"
Obviously that is painting with an overly broad brush, but I do think there's a bit of a comparison to be made there. In this metaphor, Scott would be something like an autistic monk whose intra-Church, well-intentioned criticisms got picked up by the Protestants, to his considerable dismay.
More options
Context Copy link
They think they are.
Anyone happily letting criminals go so they can prey on normal people is not actually concerned with order or justice.
I promise you, that’s not what committed leftists think they’re doing.
I don't know what the Soros-supported DAs think they are doing -- they certainly SAY that's not what they're doing. But it is often what they are doing.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link