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I’m ‘stolen valoring’ a post from the Sunday thread and reposting it here for higher exposure (ht @odd_primes):
Recently there was a viral explosion on Kiwifarms > Twitter about a nebulous low trust Indian cultural behavioural trait. This honor culture trait isn’t something that is unique to India. There has however been a huge influx of Indians into the West both through immigration and through internet presence that has left cultural ripples. The memetic word is called ‘Izzat’ even though this is an Urdu word that only vaguely venn diagrams against the concept.
I’m beating around the bush, but I’m pretty much talking about scam culture, being the winner, getting one up on the people that are outsiders to ‘my group’, and getting status points for exploiting my outgroup.
I’d like to reiterate that this isn’t an Indian only issue, but it’s a culture clash between high and low trust cultures and is worthy of discussion.
Edit: Don't drunkpost. This is a culture war issue that should have been given better care in an OP.
2nd edit: Actually quoted the post.
I've had a similar idea to this post floating around in my head for a few months now - just observing bits of the phenomenon without having a word for it. I think China has a pretty similar version, or at least, that's what shows up in their translated fiction.
Perhaps the common cause is a long standing, fully settled culture. If there's no "frontier", if there's no concept of "making money" in a Randian sense of creating wealth by the alchemy of effort and ingenuity, then wouldn't a fiercely zero-sum culture make perfect sense? If the only way to benefit is for someone else to lose, then wouldn't that explain a culture of scammers? The way visiting vtubers talk about sliding into a hatefully defensive mindset in a week because every cabbie and street vendor "accidentally" adds an extra digit to the charge? Or the prank videos where someone records "finding" a bill on the floor of an Indian-owned shop, and the counter-minder immediately goes all on on a bluff check, insisting that they money was theirs and they dropped it and "If you are a good person, you'll give it to me."
What would happen after a hundred generations of that?
And getting caught up on the murder rate thing is an error. China doesn't have a high murder rate for the sake of face... but when it came to it, the CCP let millions of people starve so they could pretend to the world that everything was going great. Doesn't India have a history of mass famines? How many of them were made worse by aristocrats refusing to acknowledge the problem because it would lose them points in intra-elite status games?
What would happen after a hundred generations of that?
One of the things I see people talk about regarding India is this superposition of hateful gloating blended with crying supplication, like code switching back and forth to whichever seems most advantageous.
Ironically, I see the same thing in black thug culture. A guy will act like the toughest motherfucker in the world... until he gets pinched. Then he flips a switch and turns into a crybaby bitch, begging for a mercy he never showed anyone else. Seems kinda dishonorable for an "honor culture", but maybe that's just an optimization for a matriarchal/matrilinear subculture. If there's no name to pass down to your sons, why not trade that honor/face for a shot at an undeserved mercy? Or at least a police brutality payout?
That's another culture that openly celebrates "hustlers". Have you ever been hustled? I have, in my quokka days. It took more than a half dozen times, feeling like a fool for offering help and charity, before I internalized the rule "If a black guy asks you for help that even touches on the concept of money, he is a piece of shit scammer. Fuck him, fuck his "sick" mother and fuck his whole sick culture."
Not since the end of the Raj.
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