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PaperclipPerfector  3d ago (text post)   9677 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 1, 2025

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I do eat oysters and other bivalves m, but I no longer label myself vegan.

Why not?

1). I now eat bottom-feeding fish (sardines, anchovies, tilapia). This is too far to call myself vegan anymore. 2). I no longer believe that veganism is nutritionally beneficial due to big mental health changes from eating fish. I still think largely plant-based is the way to go however. 3). I no longer believe in the purity culture associated with veganism. The way forward for animal rights is by a large number of people making small changes to their diets, not through a couple million extremists trying to argue people into diets they will not comply with.

Why did you decide to start eating those fish?

A couple reasons. A blogger I used to follow (rintrah) who used to be vegan found out he was extremely deficient in Omega-3s and this had been negatively impacting his mood and behavior. I noticed similar symptoms in myself. Also the canned fish were right next to the oysters in the supermarket and I found myself craving sardines every time I bought oysters.

FWIW, you can get omega 3s from algae oil as well (which is what I do). I have to say I'm somewhat surprised that you ended up eating fish after the interminable debates about animal rights in the pages of this very forum.

I still believe in animal rights, I just no longer think veganism is the way to obtain them. I don't eat eggs or dairy still and never plan to (unless I can own a chicken or five), or eat terrestrial meat or predator fish. Sardines and anchovies have such a limited capacity to suffer, and are likely eaten by predators in the wild anyway, so what does me refusing to eat a couple cans a week actually do for those fish (nothing). Of course if I was eating only fish, or fish that ate other fish (Tuna, Salmon, etc.) I think my calculation would be different, and with terrestrial animals factory farming is clearly evil, and I personally can't stomach hunting, so those are still off the table. That said the extremist vegan position was not sustainable for me. What can I say, you guys were right about stuff.

Note that whole most anchovies and sardines are wild caught, tilapia is mostly farmed and has the usual factory farming problems (and I'd expect, although I haven't checked, that the supply of wild tilapia is inelastic and increased demand for tilapia results in more farmed tilapia).

What can I say, you guys were right about stuff.

Don't look at me, I'm a vegetarian.

I haven’t actually eaten tilapia yet, so this is good to know. I will pass on them then.

Ah, fair enough.

I also wouldn't say it's egregious if someone who eats oysters calls themselves mostly vegan or even vegan for simplicity.

As mollusks are invertebrates it's not even clear they have the ability to perceive experience. So, at least some, of the ethical considerations for veganism are moot. I know, I know, they still have nerves. It's not clear if there is still proper concept of pain or suffering from those structures or if the nerves just allow for reflexive action like a silver maple turning over a damaged leaf. They can also be farmed relatively sustainably, so some of the environmental considerations are also moot. It's probably a lot easier to explain to a normi "I'm mostly vegan" than to say I'm a vegan, but I cleave the phylogenetic tree at Nephrozoa not Animalia.

Pescetarians calling themselves vegetarians is relatively more potentially confusing, though also understandable if they come from a tradition of giving up only carne (in the flesh from that which walks the earth sense) for lent or on Fridays, etc.

Cephalopods are mollusks, too. I'm not sure about the nervous systems of gastropods, either. It's mostly bivalves that are effectively meat-plants. outside of mollusks, some echinoderms had, then lost brains at some point, but display far more complex behavior than bivalves, so IDK. Sea Anenemies (HTF do you pell that I've tried like 6 ways and can't get any spellcheck suggestions) seem fairly plant-like, but does anyone actually eat them? Does anyone eat echinoderms besides seacucumbers?

Sea Anenemies (HTF do you pell that I've tried like 6 ways and can't get any spellcheck suggestions) seem fairly plant-like, but does anyone actually eat them?

Wikipedia article

In southwestern Spain and Sardinia, the snakelocks anemone is consumed as a delicacy. Anemones are also a source of food for fisherman communities on the east coast of Sabah, Borneo, as well as in the Thousand Islands of Southeast Asia and in Taizhou, Zhejiang.

Technically speaking the current Catholic definition of meat requires the animal to be both land dwelling and warm blooded. Older Cajuns will think reptile meat is vegetarian, including things like rattlesnake. It makes sense from a culinary definition, if not nutritional.

The church also declared beavers to be cold-blooded water dwellers and therefore perfectly suitable to eat during Friday fasts. The rules get weird around the edges.

Are beavers actually cold-blooded?

This rather famously resulted in some awkward loopholes around the capybara. Thankfully, 1800s Catholics had not yet discovered the swamp rabbit.

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