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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34590 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023

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Let's say for example that you regularly fantasized about some female friend being naked. Furthermore, let's say you never told a soul but did write it in a diary which you kept safe and never let anyone see. Some might say you did nothing wrong. But even so, if your friend decided to snoop in your diary and found that out she would be profoundly creeped out, and the friendship would be seriously damaged. I think the same would happen for a male friend too, of course, this isn't a gender thing.

This is appealing to consequences that only result if you leave records of your fantasies. I don't think it can extend to thoughts without completely changing the underlying situation.

Imagine applying the same standards to almost any other fantasy or imagined scenario you can have with another person.

Is it wrong to imagine yourself in an action movie with another person? How about if you do it frequently, and write it down?

Is it wrong to imagine the reaction another person will have to a gift you plan to give them?

Is it wrong to imagine conversations with other people?

Is it wrong to imagine punching another person?

I just don't see what line sexually fantasizing about another person is supposed to be crossing that these other things don't. I think policing thoughts is harmful and unproductive, and it is better to just accept that people all around you are imagining and doing things with their remembered images of you in their brains all the time. If people remember me at all when I'm not around, I'm flattered more than anything, even if they are remembering me in a negative light, or projecting me into a scenario that is harmful or embarrassing to my imagined doppleganger.

I think at best you could get a norm that amounts to, "If you fantasize about someone you know in real life, don't leave a paper trail."

I would add to this the very common self-help advice to visualize the success you want to have. As in imagining yourself winning the race, award, promotion, etc. And one of those et ceteras is "get the girl." Is it morally wrong to imagine oneself asking out a potential partner? Getting a yes? Having a great conversation over dinner? The first kiss? These don't strike me as remotely creepy. Why is "we have a great time together" creepy when you add "getting it on?"

I just don't see what line sexually fantasizing about another person is supposed to be crossing that these other things don't.

The problem with your argument is that you assume those other things don't cross lines. But fantasizing about hitting someone does cross a line, for example. It's bad to do that too. If I had to try to generalize a principle out of this (which I'm not sure I have the chops to do), it would be something like "don't fantasize about doing something with/to someone that they wouldn't want you to actually do with/to them". Fantasizing isn't bad in and of itself, it's the fact that you're fantasizing about something they would not be ok with that upsets people. Thus, fantasizing about having a conversation is fine because having a conversation is fine. Fantasizing about punching someone in the face is bad because punching them in the face is bad.

I also think you're really missing the mark if your takeaway is "just don't get caught and it's ok". I mentioned the diary because it's the only real way for someone to find out, but it isn't the record that would bother someone. It's the fact that you are doing it at all. "It's ok as long as I don't get caught" is literally the moral code of a child, but as an adult one should realize "no it's wrong even if nobody will ever know".

I don't think it's worth spending a lot of time on, but this sounds bat-shit crazy neurotic unhealthy self-flagellating.

Or do you just have something against imagination and fiction entirely?

As a different perspective, avoiding fantasizing about things that would be bad to do in real life sounds like an aspect of virtue ethics. It is neurotic and unhealthy to focus on something that will never happen. Epicureans would focus on obtainable pleasures. Buddists would say that these desires cause suffering. And so forth.

I think @SubstantialFrivolity is arguing that there is a very real moral and psychological injury being done to the people engaged in making and consuming these AI Generated images. I don't know if they would extrapolate to porn in general, but I would.

I mean, I mostly agree that it's not productive, and often not healthy, to spend a lot of time thinking about things that won't happen.

I think bringing in a moral judgement onto it makes no sense though.

For me, morality and health are intertwined. Any time someone says "should" they are making a moral judgement. Any time someone says, "I shouldn't do this, it's not healthy" they are making a moral judgement. "I shouldn't eat dessert, it's not healthy," is a moral decision that increases the virtue/habit of prudence and fortitude.

Fantasizing about sex with (uninterested female friend) isn't just about 'having sex with them immorally', it could also be a part of motivation to see if they are interested / pursue them, or even in a conservative moral framework attempt to court them for marriage and then have sex. "If something is obtainable" is not something one can know in many cases.

Do you think there is actual benefit to fantasizing about having sex with someone, in the eventuality that you actually get to have sex with that person at some point? I am not very certain that imagining having sex with a woman, picturing her liking this, enjoying that, actually helps when you encounter the flesh and blood woman, who likely acts and enjoys completely different things. In fact, I think it probably hinders a fruitful, mutually pleasing sexual encounter.

My argument is fantasizing about sex is ... part of or deeply related to desiring sex, in (same analogy as before) the same sense that 'imagining tasty food' is part of wanting that tasty food. This may be described as 'wanting it so badly you imagine it', but I don't actually think they're separate, or that 'imagination' is a discrete thing separate from normal thought. If you, just as a casual action, plan to reach for a cup, do you "imagine" reaching before you do? Not really, but ... sort of, partially, vacuously?

So 'imagining sex with someone' is just a normal thing. It's possible to spend too much time imagining it and not enough time in pursuit, and that could 'make the sex worse', but I don't think it's made worse in the normal case of imagining it.

I agree with you about imagination, that it is inseparable from rational thought and a needed step in actualizing a potential. I draw a distinction between imagining something - having a thought or chain of thoughts related to a topic that leads to a conclusion regardless of the current state of physical material reality - and fantasizing, dwelling, vividly painting a picture and circling around and around in the same thoughts for minutes and hours and days. Imagination gets you from point A to point B and invites action. Fantasizing is Narcissus staring at his reflection for the rest of his life. It prevents action.

Would you extend this standard to all forms of fiction, be they novels, movies, or video games, in which the protagonist harms or kills others? Or only if such harm is justified in context or the morals of the story are considered appropriate or applicable to the real world?

I don't extend it to novels where a protagonist harms another, has sex, or does any specific immoral action. I would extend it to a form of fiction where the sole point was to dwell/glorify violence, sex, or a specific immoral action. Most forms of fiction provide some sort of philosophical evaluation of right/wrong, and utilizes immoral actions to demonstrate this. Or they provide a psychological snapshot of someone else's viewpoint, which broadens the mind of the reader. Or they provide a glimpse into another way of life.

Something like Agony in Pink, on the other hand, takes a little something away from everyone who reads it, be it time or a tiny amount of psychological well-being.

Right now I am fantasising about having sex with either you or @vorpa-glavo. I am respectfully appreciating the other of you. Who have I injured? No one, because things that happen exclusively inside my head have no effect on either of you. What injured your friend with the diary was learning about your fantasy, not the fantasy itself - before they invaded your privacy they were unaware and as a result unbothered.

What if it was a dream? What if I dreamed I was sexing either you or vorpa while a duck with the face of my father sung Uptown Funk backwards into a cucumber? Knowledge of this might affect our relationship negatively, and if you read about it in my dream journal one of you might be upset, but am I really to blame for the random firing of synapses in my head? No, and if it had remained a dream no injury could be considered. It's not 'it's ok as long as I don't get caught', it's 'it's ok as long as it doesn't affect reality'.

You might then argue that fantasies often provoke real world actions and I would agree, and say that uncontrolled impulses are much more morally fraught, but that doesn't implicate the fantasies themselves.

I don't think "nobody was injured because nobody knows" is a reasonable defense. I don't think that there needs to be an injured party for something to be wrong.

Also dreams are an entirely different thing than actively fantasizing. The latter is a choice you make, the former is firing of random synapses in your brain. Intrusive thoughts that you don't dwell on are similarly not wrong. I've had dreams where I cheat on my wife, and I feel scuzzy in the morning. But once I get out of the post-dream haze, I realize I didn't actually do anything wrong. However, if I were dwelling on a fantasy about cheating on my wife I would be doing something wrong because that is a choice and is under my control.

I don't think that there needs to be an injured party for something to be wrong.

Okay. I accept this as a description of your values. I entirely disagree and do not emphasize.

No harm no wrong is my view. And idle horny thoughts are the very peak of inconsequential harmlessness.

Fantasizing isn't bad in and of itself, it's the fact that you're fantasizing about something they would not be ok with that upsets people.

I think there's a legitimate concern that this kind of rule or principle would be too broad in its application, and lead people to unhelpful policing of their own mind.

People who tend towards internalizing disorders like anxiety and depression are already predisposed to get very inside of their heads, and second guess themselves. Telling people like that that they need to worry about whether they're thinking about other people in a respectful way seems like it's just giving these people more tools to torture themselves over their inappropriate thoughts.

I'm fairly emotionally stable, and don't tend towards internalizing disorders, but I have a few friends that do, and the inside of their minds sound like horrible places. They're constantly being unkind to themselves, and even when their lives are going well they feel guilty and can't allow themselves a moment of happiness. Telling people like that that they have to feel bad about sexual thoughts about other people, or fantasies, is just not going to be good of them.

It's going to, at minimum, create OCD people who constantly have intrusive thoughts about fantasizing about the people around them, and who then scrupulously beat themselves up for their failure to live up to the highest human ideals.

I'd rather have rules that don't stigmatize normal parts of human cognition, and don't have the risk of being taken way too far for a portion of the population.

I think the norm of, "It's perfectly normal to sexually fantasize about people you know, but don't let your fantasies affect how you treat them", is a much more actionable norm with fewer downsides, compared to, "Sexually fantasizing about people you know is morally wrong, and you should probably feel bad for doing it."

I think that's a fair point, but that to combat that we should emphasize the difference between thoughts that just pop into your head and thoughts you actively entertain. It's only the latter which poses a moral problem, not the former.

I do sympathize with the plight of people who struggle with mental difficulties. I am one of those people. But I also don't think that the solution is to say "well it's ok" out of concern for their well being. There has to be a middle ground, it seems to me.

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