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You know, I discovered something about myself a few weeks ago, just before Christmas, that I have since been working on. I was doing some mindless heavy lifting at work so I put on All Day by Girl Talk because it has a fast tempo and good bass, and my boss complained. But the way she did it was to say she didn't like it and it was too rap heavy and ha ha ha, I didn't really like that kind of thing did I? I mean really ha ha, this is the kind of... music you like? And I almost quit on the spot.
It was a pretty over the top reaction from me, but there was an enormous amount of pressure inside me to terminate the relationship when I felt her trying so hard to manipulate me. And I think what it is is that I have been burned so many times by manipulative actors (my brother and I used to have a gallows humour joke that our family get togethers were daes dae'mar there was so much manipulation going on) that now if I sense manipulation I have a visceral reaction.
And so this is obviously something I have to work on (because it makes me easy to manipulate), but in the meantime, I have to say this is excessively manipulative and I don't give a shit if they have a point, they need to be fired - from a cannon into the sun. Otherwise just give them EA already and save us all the extra drama, because that's where this is going to end up, yet another "smart" community 'to be fair'ing a sociopath into power.
Side note: Dawkins was right, elevatorgate - and this shit too - is pure first world problems and had we listened to him and taken that route - the route you describe as truth telling - the woke would be a lot less powerful. And yet you still act like he was in the wrong for being an asshole. It feels like you are being the kind of quokka who would advise against going to the cops, but instead of covering for creepy losers you are covering for manipulative cunts.
Nobody said Dawkins wasn't right. He's a smart guy, he's right often enough. He's just also an asshole, whose idea of disagreement with people is just turning the "be a dick" dial up to 11. IMO a Dawkins approach hurts more than it helps, because it makes people angry and double down rather than actually thinking about the topic. But whether or not that's correct, he was most definitely in the wrong for being an asshole. But that doesn't mean his claims weren't correct - the people he was mocking were also in the wrong.
Sometimes you can't tell the truth nicely. Sometimes people won't hear the truth if you are nice about it, and I also think that there are times only an asshole can see the truth. A lie can circle the globe before the truth gets its pants on sometimes, and a forceful personality is required to shock people out of complacency.
I think you get a healthier society with smart and honest assholes than with smart and polite manipulators. This kind of Manipulative behaviour is almost always nicer than turning the be a dick dial up, but it is always worse for your community.
To put it another way, when you set the truth aside for propriety you give control to whoever defines propriety. That's how you get purity spirals and sociopaths. Maybe there was a way for Dawkins to make his point without being a dick. I would like to think that's true, even though it feels naive to me these days. But that isn't what happened, atheists had a choice between honest assholes and polite manipulation - they chose manipulation and reaped the rewards. I hope EA don't make the same mistake.
Edit: added the words "This kind of" in front of manipulative behaviour until I can think of the term I should have used in the first place to describe the behaviour I mean.
I think the opposite actually. The fact that tighter packed societies (Japan, UK) tend to have much more indirect polite rules to avoid being direct might indicate that when people are in closer proximity fake politeness is an adaptive behavior for society. If truthful asshole behavior causes your society to fragment then polite manipulation is probably preferable.
In other words we can only put up with lots of other human beings when we are dishonest about how we feel about each other. I think that fits how people perceive truthful assholes in general.
I think that conflating politeness and manipulativeness is not reasonable. Also, are the UK and Japan distinguished from demographically comparable countries by greater dishonesty? I'd say they have excelled by being somewhat more capable of engaging object-level truth, while many others have fallen into forms of mysticism, self-delusion, indulgence, corruption and goodharting.
There is a subtle mechanism here: these societies have regimented culture, rigid protocols for polite interaction, yes, and for preventing and deescalating conflicts, but that allows to break the bad news without relying on extreme overpowering stimuli. Kind of what we have here.
(Alternatively, those are just societies with many survivors of a true aristocratic class).
But that's not necessarily the global optimum. The closest thing to a nation of truth-telling assholes that we have is probably Israel. And New York. Both are even denser than the UK and Japan, and even more successful.
Bonus: https://twitter.com/Ghostof_Atticus/status/1591559230695538688
I think I'd agree with Fruck above, polite standard of behaviours are essentially deceptions we all (more or less) agree to. I don't call Bob an annoying loud ass and he doesn't call me a sanctimonious pencil pusher. Those may allow us to more carefully engage with difficult subjects because we aren't pissed off at each others existence all the time, so our white lies and deceptions may also facilitate truth discussion, but not by being a truthful asshole as mentioned.
I think it's likely that the most successful classes in say New York are probably more likely to be more polite/deceptive in this way than the least. And looking at some of biggest drivers of violence in US cities currently, it seems to be driven by a very direct insult/response culture. Israel I am less familiar with but given their own specific circumstances may not be all that representative.
I like how you started but I strongly disagree with how you ended that paragraph. Politeness may be better for harmony, and sometimes productivity, and sometimes capability, but it doesn't help truth telling, the only times I think it might are when the situation is so dire that lives are currently at stake, and I hope it isn't consensus building to say the stakes aren't that high in these situations.
The first thing that I feel like maybe has been forgotten in all this is that politeness is deceptive. It is not to be trusted. We rely on it as a society, but trusting it is madness, it is designed to betray. I think a lot of people know that instinctively, even if they don't think about it consciously - which is why they push so hard to add their values to it. Using pronouns is 'just being a decent person' and so on.
Furthermore, it is specifically politeness which is facilitating grifters around the world, in the exact way it is being used against the EA community here. Because there is no polite way to object to a sociopath currently bringing all of her knowledge about human behaviour and social mores to bear against you. There is only submission, because she knows exactly which buttons to push to get her way, she knows how to frame her story for maximum sympathy, she knows who to take it to for favourable coverage, and she knows that her targets may as well be drinking baby seal blood the way society currently looks at them.
What happens after you politely respond with something like "yeah look I understand your concerns, but our community is made up of weird scrupulosity afflicted autists trying to paperclip happiness, and we don't want our soul drained and dessicated until we are yet another bland cookie cutter corporate tax dodge"? If you aren't just ignored, you will be shamed into submission, because by being polite you have already admitted that you can be shamed into submission. Sorry folks, being an effective altruist is now asshole behaviour.
I think grifters can exploit any social norm. For example it may be politeness being exploited in the EA community, because the social norm is something like I know when I am politely deceptive it is for the greater good therefore when Sue does it she must also be doing the same thing. If Sue is a bad faith actor she can exploit this.
However in our direct and honest society, the typical minding will be, I know I tell the blunt truth therefore Sue must also be doing the same thing. In a society where everyone tells the truth a lying grifter will also be able to prosper in other words, because if everyone tells the truth, defenses against lying will be even worse.
You can't stop grifters exploiting social norms. They have done it in every society no matter how polite or how truthful. In every conceivable arrangement from communism to capitalism to evangelical churches to atheist movements and beyond. Barbarian tribes had grifters, the Roman Empire had grifters, Victorian England had grifters.
It's not deceptive politeness that enables that, it's people being willing to exploit social norms, whatever they might be. Removing politeness norms and replacing it with something else means grifters have to use different tactics but the result will be the same I think.
I 100% agree. I don't want to do away with politeness, but I also don't want to do away with honest assholes. I think of them like canaries in coal mines, a community's last line of defence. It can lead to false positives if they get too paranoid/belligerent, and it can also be gamed by the manipulative. It's a lot harder to game than politeness though - for a bunch of reasons, but primarily because it is so much more confrontational. We need some people like Dawkins and Diogenes and Jesus, or we will be milled by grifts.
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