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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   29326 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023

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His post is "detach the artist from their art" just with more words. The result won't be to disarm "the left" and "the woke"; the result will be "conservatives" just losing more. If conservatives cannot even forgo a movie about nonwhites fighting against their pale, capitalist oppressors, how are they going to affect significant change in the broader cultural norms to understand people are "complex"? They can't even get movie studios to stop producing content made for mass audiences which attacks their beliefs on their face made by people who are open and vocal about hating you and wanting your civilization to burn.

It's a suicidal position. When your opposition makes everything political, you don't win by compartmentalizing, you simply lose. The entire endeavor turns into what to think in order to soothe discomfort around accepting the morally superior loser part in the play.

I don't have any grand plan for how to make the world better, other than to be the change I want to see. I believe the fracturing that comes with non-compartmentalization makes the world worse, makes my life worse, and even makes me worse as a human being, in many ways. I think there are a lot of people out there who are sick of this illiberal way of life they've been coopted into. If we don't start reaching out across the isle to them, showing them there are reasonable people who don't do it that way, they'll feel it's the only way. I do believe and hope that this is just a temporary trend in society, and that the pendulum will swing back.

You don't need a grand plan to solve all the world's ills and your current "grand plan" is cultural suicide; if one cannot even bring themselves to not actively consume the mindvirus which hates them and is working to destroy their civilization, how would they do better ever?

If we don't start reaching out across the isle to them, showing them there are reasonable people who don't do it that way, they'll feel it's the only way.

"start"?

after the last couple decades or so (let alone longer than that), you think the problem is you didn't compromise enough for your opposition to stop hating you, trying to destroy your life, and to burn your civilization down?

you compromise on "civil rights," they ruin your cities and call you racist as you flee to suburbs while pushing explicitly anti-you quotas

you compromise on illegals, they shove more than ever before and in a shorter period of time

you compromise on gays, they move on to transsexuals and your children

the list goes on and on

When will you know when you've "reached out" enough? It's clearly not endorsed state actors convincing children they want to be "gender affirmed." When will you know?

The reason your opposition continues destroying and burning unabated is because they've discovered you're actually harmless.

It's a suicidal position.

Not everything in life comes down to effectiveness. At some point, someone has to be the adult and say "I'm going to treat you well" even if that's tactically unwise. If nobody ever does that, then we just hate each other and try to kill each other forever.

so instead you volunteer to kill yourself

okay, well that's up to you

if avoiding discomfort is the purpose, why not just forget about the whole "conservative" politics things altogether

If you don't understand the difference between giving up entirely and being unwilling to accept certain actions, I don't know what to tell you. Suffice it to say that I don't agree that there's any conflict between "victory is desirable" and "victory isn't worth any possible cost".

"certain actions"

hah, we're talking about going to see a marvel cattleslop movie whose narrative will be about hating "conservatives" and giving money to the creator who is vocal about hating "conservatives"

this isn't a disagreement about being willing to anything vs. nothing, it's about the incredible length of the list of things "conservatives" wouldn't be willing to do and instead choose losing

otherwise, you may be unkind to someone! at that point, why not just give up this whole performative "conservative politics," thing altogether?

that's my point

Just a reminder: the best strategy when dealing with an unconditional cooperatebot is «always defect».

If nobody ever does that, then we just hate each other and try to kill each other forever.

Also wrong: eventually someone wins.

No, that's wrong. Nobody ever wins forever. Your "victory" is really just sowing the seeds of future hatred and violence.

Honestly, it seems to me that conservatives and straight white men have been turning the other cheek for 60+ years now and it's only gotten us into this hell. Maybe time for some stronger tactics?

I never said to just "turn the other cheek". But you have to be careful how you fight back. There are plenty of people here whose only motive at this point is to just hurt the people who hurt them. It would be just as bad if they win the culture war as it would be if the woke left won the culture war. I don't want a tyranny of the left, but that doesn't mean I want a tyranny of the right either.

Less practically, I believe that the one thing that really matters in the end is your character. Not victory or defeat in some culture war, but who you are as a person. It's important to hold on to that above all else. Again, that doesn't mean that you have to just meekly accept everything others may throw your way (unlike how @DaseIndustriesLtd incorrectly characterizes me as a "cooperate bot"), but it does mean that you can't just go "well that's a losing tactic" as a form of dismissal. Better to lose while being moral than to win while being immoral. The latter is quite literally barbaric and is beneath us.

On the whole I'd rather be immoral than go extinct.

it shouldn't be surprising a movement who doesn't even have the righteous belief winning would even be good to constantly choose to lose

without the belief that you should shape the world into something better, the world will always be shaped by worse men and you've chosen this as a strategy

Better to lose while being moral than to win while being immoral.

I despise this phrase, and I think its central error is presenting a false dichotomy. There are third options, and this phrase is used to deflect responsibility for avoiding costly actions that are moral while simply taking the L with an air of smug self-righteousness. Your character is not just determined by your actions: refusing to act can negatively reflect on your character when you are shirking obligations that are your proper responsibility--to yourself, your kin, the Truth, etc.

Genocide is barbaric even in a time of war. Killing enemy soldiers is normal in war but a crime in peace, while an agreement is in place. You wish to apply the rules of peace and tell me I shouldn’t target enemy soldiers because that would make me just as bad as them. And of course if there was an agreement in place it would be an atrocity. But this agreement having been shredded by the enemy, we are in a state of war.

Yes, I anticipate your objection that that is what both sides would accuse the other side of. The thing about being an adult is you have to weigh the evidence and make a choice. At the very least if you abstain from making it, you should take the Scott Alexander route and admit you are doing it for your own good (TheMotte statement, Kolgomorov) instead of dressing it up as superior morality above the petty squabbles between left and right.

Who ended federalism (violation 1) and then overrode the legislature of the national population (violation 2)? Who unleashed violent actors to terrorise it’s enemies and cleanse them from urban life?

These are not at all hard questions.

You're right. That is what the other side would accuse you of. I'm not buying it from them, and I don't buy it from you either. I don't care to listen to the warmongers on the left or on the right.

Would it be fair to say that your morality is downstream of a religious world view that in effect dismisses the entirety of the material world as mere testing grounds for «good character»? Taken together with your harm-OCD-like beliefs on account of sinful thoughts, that's the best case for you that I can make.

Because otherwise it makes no sense at all. You commit to losing wars and surrendering the world to people who do not share your compunctions, much less your positive vision. This is cowardly betrayal of good, justified by a pathetic veneer of false symmetry.

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