This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This is reality. Trump is dispensing with some of the polite fictions because they are distorting peoples' perception of actual reality. In reality, there are not many scenarios where Europe can possibly come to America's aid in any substantive way other than moral support, regardless of treaty obligations. That's Europe's choice, and for better or worse it makes them a much less valuable ally.
So I interpreted it correctly. Let's just wind this thing down. I am honestly tired of explaining the value of an alliance with a bloc with a huge economy and population and very similar interests. I can't do it anymore, despite being an Americanophile through and through. We are too far apart on what we think the other brings to the table. Or maybe we hate each other like an old couple.
I want merz and everyone to tell trump to fuck off in no uncertain terms and stop giving him face-saving exits. Full tariffs, leave ramstein, etc. It's headed towards it anyway. They are slowly learning to deal with Trump's trick of defect defect defect until he finds resistance.
Why would you suppose we have very similar interests?
What sort of American?
There's a considerable number of Americans who would welcome this, I'd imagine.
I don't want to live in Europe. I don't want to live anywhere like Europe. I don't want where I live to become more like Europe, even marginally. I would prefer actual war against the authorities to this happening. Your entire social consensus is inimical to what I view as fundamental human rights and basic principles of liberty. We are not friends in any meaningful sense; you are allied with my tribal enemies, and will be for the foreseeable future.
Again, Carney says it best:
I perceive integration with Europe one of the major sources of my subordination.
No matter which way net subordination actually flows, maybe it's time for a peaceful divorce then.
More options
Context Copy link
You are vastly oversimplifying. There are twice as many people in Europe as in the USA - we are not 750 million clones of Angela Merkel or Schultz.
What makes a friend? Personally, I read much of what you write with interest and appreciation. Whatever you may believe, there is some level of sympathy between many Europeans and Americans like you. It's nosediving lately because so many Red Tribers are grinning and making teabagging gestures as Trump threatens to come over and take our stuff because he feels like it and we can't stop him, but it's there.
Sure, Europe and America are too integrated. That's partly because integration has been pursued vigorously by America over the last 50 years for obvious reasons, but it's likely harmful now. But there are levels of integration between 'you are allied with my enemies and I despise you' and 'Europe? never heard of it'.
Can you provide any examples of European sympathy when Thierry Breton decided to teabag Americans?
From the stuff I read:
https://unherd.com/newsroom/eu-is-spearheading-the-new-global-axis-of-censorship/
https://unherd.com/newsroom/banning-x-will-not-make-anyone-safer/
https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/07/30/can-elon-musk-beat-the-eu-censors/
https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/05/27/the-eus-empire-of-censorship/
Plus later:
https://unherd.com/2025/11/the-eus-new-censorship-machine/
https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/03/25/the-eu-wants-to-censor-the-global-internet/
Broadly, it would be a mistake to:
Treat the behaviour of the EU and especially Thierry Breton as representative of the mass political will of normal Europeans. Broadly there is some correlation but the EU is famously non-democratic, and Thierry Breton is an unelected EU Commissioner. The former president of the EU Commission once said in public re: referendums, “If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'.” The anti-democratic behaviour of the EU puts the American Deep State to shame.
Treat the behaviour of the EU as being about America rather than Europe. Yes, they loathe Trump and they really don't want him in the White House, and they know Americans who encourage them in this feeling and beg / order them to do something about it. But even then, they are far more worried about X encouraging populism at home, plus they are partially responding to (some) voters concerns about social media in general. They wouldn't like X any more if it were Australian. It would be far more sensible to disengage, but because of network effects and general shitness, Europe has totally failed to make its own social media (with exceptions for some countries like I think Finland ( @Stefferi ?) and cannot do so without blanket banning American social media like China does, which is not in the Overton window. Thus the increasing prevalence of stuff like the UK Online Safety law and these attempts to regulate foreign social media in the same way they would regulate local companies.
Finland used to have a popular social media called IRC-Galleria, so named since it was originally for IRC users to post their own photos and so on. It still exists and has something of a continuing userbase from what I've understood, but basically they failed to develop their interface and usability and got quickly replaced by Facebook as the social media of choice when it became a thing.
This Instagram page posts old IRC-Galleria photos from the 00s, in case one wants a nostalgic trip to early-millennial Finland.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
oh generally, if you can like people in general. It's ideological convergence mostly: individualism, freedom (especially speech), plus a certain "moral affinity for the strong". I think american hegemony was largely beneficial.
You: have a pathological hatred of the blue tribe, which you transfer onto europeans. One day, frustrated in your attempts to provoke a civil war at home, you'll charge naked at Greenland or Vancouver. Decoupling from such volatile and extreme polarization makes sense, of course.
I do not recognize a shared understanding of "freedom" or "free speech". European governments have expended considerable effort to curtail both my freedoms generally and especially my ability to speak. They have publicly discussed why doing so is a priority to them and strategized on how to do it better.
Hatred, certainly. Sinful, certainly. Pathological... Less so.
You are supporting a tribe that does not believe I should have a career or even a job. You are supporting a tribe that wants to destroy the economies of any place where legible concentrations of people like me live. That openly supports mobs beating people like me in the street. That does not believe people like me deserve equal protection under the law, and has been working for decades to deny it to us. That openly celebrates the murder of people like me, and the death of children like mine.
You are supporting a tribe that has, in my view, proved itself fundamentally hostile to every facet of my existence.
This might be workable if people like me were some vanishing, abnormal minority. In the real world, there are several dozen millions of us, and we retain considerable political, economic, and physical power, and we are currently negotiating a consensus on how to use that power to handle the above problems. Electing Trump was an interim product of that negotiation, but if and when he is expended, we will make additional attempts until we perceive the problem to be solved or until we are destroyed.
You are wrong that I am attempting to provoke a civil war in my home. You are wrong that those who are attempting to provoke a civil war in my home are having their efforts "frustrated". You are certainly wrong that the end result of this process is going to be crazy people charging naked into Greenland or Vancouver.
Dase is correct that this Greenland affair is downstream of the culture war. He is incorrect that the Culture War has been won in any meaningful sense by the election of Donald Trump to a second presidential term. The richest, most powerful country in the world cannot reach consensus on what its laws mean or how to enforce them. Its population has lost any semblance of values-coherence, and increasingly considers fellow countrymen an existential threat. For the last decade, people here have been treating this all as some sort of elaborate silly-goosery, but our actual inability to reach agreement on extremely fundamental questions of basic coexistence is a very big problem for people like yourself, who have offloaded most of the practicalities of your physical security to our military. Most of you seem to be handling this problem by hoping it goes away, that this is all a weird, momentary aberration, and that we will go back to presenting congenial Blueness into the future. I do not think that is going to happen, but you pays your money and you takes your chance.
Again, why do you assume that I, as a european, map onto the blue tribe? I oppose the curtailing of your speech and mine in the strongest terms. Actually, I have argued multiple times in defense of free speech against you, lmao. (According to you it‘s "not real" and no one believes in it).
Europeans elect right-wingers too (especially now). Two years ago, biden was your president. As a right-wing european, should I have declared that I am therefore the mortal enemy of all americans, like you do now?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
A bit up-thread @lollol linked Issendai's deep-dive into the world of estranged parents' forums, I can't help but see echoes of it here.
Trump has been a public figure for 30+ years. he wrote an entire book about how "there are no friends or foes at the negotiating table, only competing interests", about the necessity of "doing away with polite fictions in favor of honest dialog", and the utility of using intentionally erratic and absurd behavior to to sus out hidden motives and insecurities. "Slam the door and see who flinches" is how he put it.
...and a lot of commentors, including both yourself and the OP, seem to be tying yourselves in cognitive knots to avoid considering the possibility that he might have actually meant what he said. They keep going on about how Trump is being abusive and spitting in their face but they're ultimately acting the role of the toxic parent who refuses to accept the fact that their children have moved out of the house and now have careers and families of their own. They keep trying to play the "So long as you live under my roof and I'm paying the bills you need to shut up and do as I say" card, but that's just the thing, you have not been paying the bills.
Wait, how on earth are the europeans the parents in this analogy? Rutte (who should seriously stfu) called Trump Daddy, which is imo one of the sources of his late megalomaniac bender.
I tend to side with the parents on such forums (and the mirror "my mom is a narcissist" type). My prior is that the reasons given by the kids really are stupid. Most of pop psychology consists of inventing reasons why your parents made you a failure.
Wow, that post is evil. Especially the final part where it denies the possibility of healing the relationship. Of course it approvingly cites an "Expert" anonymous psychologist (who else?), who seems to think that threatening to end the relationship with your parents is the best way of winning an argument. A mom cites a clearly stupid reason their kid hates them, people take a step back, and then go "I'd like to go back to the cornflake issue". Beyond parody.
Anyway, that illustrates that I have a moral affinity for the strong. My sympathy initially lies with the US, and also (slightly) with trump against the democrats. But his late behaviour towards us is unacceptable and I just want out. We are no longer friends, I accept that, but we are not children to be abused and threatened at will, and if he continues, then we will be enemies.
The Europeans are the parents in this analogy in part because you (that is Europe) made us. We were amalgamation of Anglo, French, Dutch, and Spanish colonists before we became "The United States" and to some extant we still are. There is still a great deal of pride in that ancestry and a strong cultural affinity even today.
But pride and affinity don't pay the bills. You ask "how on earth are the Europeans the parents in this analogy" and then go on to take the parents side. Maybe it's my own experience sharing a family with addicts and alcoholics but I am much less inclined to simply dismiss the kids as "stupid" out of hand, and maybe that's why I feel the post is relevant.
Pointing out that Europe is a weak and unreliable ally who's values often clash with ours, and who is at this very moment actively funding the ongoing slaughter in Ukraine through their purchases of Russian energy and goods is not "abuse" it is an explanation.
You might not like what was said, or who said it, but that doesn't change the fact that you know the reason why many in the US are cooling towards Europe, but Just like the parents in that post you avoid acknowledging it.
To quote the closing monologue...
You are not understanding the problem. Talking to me like we‘re negotiating the amount of the „fair share“ I should pay to you, or what I need to do for Ukraine or in our internal politics to accomodate you .
No. Listen to what I‘m saying. You say you have affection for europeans, and I feel the same about americans, but we are beyond that now. Our relationship has been irreparably damaged by trump‘s threats and insults. I am not like trump – saying outrageous things as a negotiating anchor with the intention of backing down to a lower number, or macho trash-talking, empty bragging about my own strength. I mean what I say. I want to make it official that our alliance is cancelled, and americans out of europe.
You feel that I do not understand and I feel that you are not listening.
You say that our relationship has been irreparably damaged by trump‘s threats and insults. I would say that our relationship has been deteriorating a while now. Trump's "threats and insults" are not the cause of that damage, they are the effect of a relationship that was already critically damaged.
Europe, or rather Europe's leadership chose to cozy up to Russia and China while taking American friendship for granted, and they laughed at us when we tried to warn them of the dangers. Europe has flat-out told us on multiple occasions that they do not view us as friends and allies but as an economic resource. Recall that back in 2020 when when Congress was talking about closing US bases in Germany, the German government objected on the grounds that it would disrupt the local economies of cities like Rammstein and Stuttgart, not on grounds of security.
As a result, there is sincere doubt within the US about Europe's value as an ally. If Chinese missiles started raining down on US cities tomorrow would Europe cut themselves off from Chinese trade? If the last 5 years are any indication, the answer would appear to be no. Even if Europe were in a position to offer aid to the US in such circumstances (which is what all this talk about NATO readiness is really about) would there be the inclination? Again, if the last 5 years are any indication, the answer would appear to be no.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link