This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
No. As a matter of plain fact, we can't. Whatever exists on an interstellar scale, it won't be us, or anything like us, or remotely comprehensible to us. It will be some superorganism that at the very most uses humans as its agents, but even that seems highly dubious - there are probably much more efficient alternatives. We have no place in that future. Our descendants have no place in that future. You have no place in that future. Your engram has no place in that future. Anything that exists across stars functions with years of latency in communications. On such a scale, humans just plain cannot function. And you aim for spanning galaxies? Transhumanism doesn't do anything here. It's just straight-up post-human.
The only way for humanity to spread through the stars and still continues to exist at all, rather than be replaced by some completely new class of entity, is in fact to colonize new Earths and continue somewhat Earth-like lives and to not create technological deities that exceed all human understanding...which is of course exactly what would be done, given the kinds of resources you speak of.
p(doom) = 1.0.
But we already live in superorganisms that use individual humans as their agents!
You, individually, can switch superorganisms within your lifetime.
The same will no longer be physically possible for interstellar ones.
I don't think an interstellar superorganism that can only send information (and not resources, people, etc) between its parts at reasonable speed is going to remain a single superorganism for long (and one that can't even send information without a human lifetime of lag won't be one at all).
Space is the hope of liberty-minded people because it's bloody damn inconvenient to reach you there.
Yes, but only for those who can live with being confined to a single star system. And only for the descendants of those who can live with never arriving there at all.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Huh? I'm rather confused.
What exactly is your argument for humans not being able to "function" when we've colonized multiple star systems? Latency? Coordination issues?
All that necessarily implies is that whatever interstellar civilization arises will be decentralized, rather than centralized.
I don't see an affirmative argument for why "mere" transhumanism won't suffice. I can easily envision a future iteration of self_made_human, or a descendant, that is as different from me as adult Einstein is from their baby self.
So what? That is still an enormous gulf in capabilities, without necessarily becoming something utterly alien. Obviously such an entitity would be very different, but why would it be unrecognizable? Why would it have values that are entirely divorced from their starting point? Why would that constitute extinction?
On p(doom) = 1.0: you've asserted this, not argued it. The mechanism matters a lot. If you think the problem is that any civilization capable of reaching the stars will necessarily have already created recursively self-improving AI that renders biological agents extinct (and also their non-biological counterparts and extensions, such as mind uploads), then the answer to that concern is not to stay on Earth, it's to think hard about how you build AI. Staying put does not help if the doom is endogenous to technological development at any scale. And if the doom is existential in the more conventional sense (asteroid, gamma ray burst, civilizational collapse), then spreading out is the only hedge available. Staying in Sol will also lead to a p(doom) of 1 given a long enough time scale. The Sun isn't going to make it till Heat Death.
We could, assuming an aligned ASI, insist on it spreading Humanity Mk. 1 across the stars while keeping us safe and preventing us from doing anything retarded (like making an unaligned ASI or unaliving ourselves). With an aligned ASI, you could have a universal-scale civilization of literal chimps, and be just fine. It's ASI dawg. I don't particularly care if biological humans are around, or in charge, if my transhuman descendants willingly become posthuman and unrecognizable, then I'll trust they have good reason to do that. The same way a baby isn't quite sure why their elder brother goes off to uni and stares at pages upon pages of arcane symbols. But it's alright nonetheless.
If you insist on biohumans being around and in control, you're going to need technological stasis, which will get us killed anyway. You will also need a mechanism for enforcing that stasis, which is AGI or ASI. If you have an aligned AGI/ASI, then you don't need that kind of nonsense in the first place.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link