Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?
This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.
Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
My Brother Came Out To Me Last Night
I should mention, for context, that I've been somewhat jealous of my younger brother for most of my childhood, adolescent and adult life. He was born with good looks in a way I was not quite born with, and then, in what I can only describe as an act of aggression, decided to go to medical school and become extremely jacked. I am fine. I do alright with the fairer sex. I have made my peace with this in the specific sense of someone who has not entirely made his peace with it but has successfully reduced it to an occasional background hum rather than an active grievance.
He is also, and this is relevant, the sort of person who has had men and women throwing themselves at him more or less continuously since approximately puberty, with the kind of effortless appeal that people like me analyze, in our more honest moments, with a mixture of admiration and despair. And yet, as long as I've known him as an adult, he's never been in a serious relationship. When I asked about this, which I did both seriously and as a recurring joke, he said he was aromantic and asexual and couldn't be bothered. His stated motivation for building an enviable physique was to "mog women," which is a sentence I found both deeply unhinged and strangely admirable. I told him this was fine because I could be interested in women on behalf of the both of us. He found this less funny than I did, and occasionally scolds me for letting my dick lead me into places neither of us would go with a gun.
(He had even shown me pictures of the girls in his batch, and the incoming ones. There was a startling paucity of hot women, especially in comparison to the batch that overlapped with mine. I'd know, I dated quite a few of them. I considered this a reasonable excuse too.)
All this serves to demonstrate that I believed him. Mostly. I'd put it at maybe 80:20 in favor of actually believing him, with the twenty percent being a vague unease I didn't particularly want to examine. He was categorical about it and the aromantic/asexual explanation was not, technically, impossible. I had, only recently, learned that he'd even kissed a girl once in high school, which was more than I'd achieved at that age, a fact I mention because it seemed like evidence at the time and I want to be honest about the quality of my evidence. I told him, several times and with complete sincerity, that if he were gay it would change nothing. He denied it each time. I let it drop, because pressing it felt more like satisfying my own curiosity than actually helping him.
He came out to me last night, under circumstances I won't describe except to say that they were upsetting and that my first instinct was to hug him, which I think was the right call. I told him I loved him and would continue to love him unconditionally, by which I meant at a level that extended to helping him with light body disposal if the need ever arose. He laughed. I think laughing was good. He cried, and I think he needed to let those tears out.
I had hoped for a little more time before telling the rest of the family, but our mother appeared, and he told her too. I could see he couldn't hold it in for another minute. She needed a moment, and then she was fine, because she is an extraordinary woman, and I have told her so myself, and I meant it. I would be doing well to find a partner who is even half the person she is.
Our father is a harder problem. He has a heart condition serious enough to have had him hospitalized for atrial fibrillation, which is the kind of detail that complicates an already complicated conversation. He's a good man and a better doctor than I can ever aspire to be, and he's not someone I'd describe as homophobic exactly, but he's also not someone for whom this information would be accepted with equanimity. I think he would come around, after experiencing some serious emotional pain and confusion. I'm less sure about the cardiac implications of the journey there, and neither my brother nor I have figured out what to do about it, beyond trying to get him to improve his health first.
Once my brother had actually told me, I was not particularly surprised to learn that his partner of several years was the person I'd known as his best friend since the start of med school. I was fond of him. I'd tutored them both through parts of medical curriculum. I'd thought of him as something like a younger brother, in the version of that concept that doesn't involve him sleeping with my actual younger brother. I would happily accept him as a brother-in-law, my brother could do much worse.
The problem is that his boyfriend is bisexual, wants to eventually settle down with a woman and have children, and has a shrewish and emotionally manipulative mother who has apparently made this preference known with some force, even if she doesn't know he's bisexual. They're both finishing their intern years, neither of them wants to do long distance, and my brother has said things are going to end soon. This is, I think, going to be genuinely painful for him, and I don't know what to do about it. Lesbians will tell you, if you give them the opportunity, that dating bisexual women has a similar actuarial quality to it - not universal, not inevitable, but a real enough pattern that people have been writing about it for as long as gay marriage has been legal in the West. My brother's boyfriend's stated plans match this pattern fairly well, and I'm sorry about that.
What my brother actually wants, as far as I can tell, is pretty unremarkable: a long-term monogamous relationship with another man. The problem is that this particular preference is not especially well-served by the available options. Indian gay men are - like gay men anywhere - by my brother's account and my own observations as a regular at a gay pub in Scotland (the people are friendly, the drinks are cheap, and I have a good essay/attempt at ethnography up about it), primarily not looking for that. Marriage out of genuine love rather than social convenience is unusual. This is not a value judgment about anyone's choices (which I consider none of my business), it's just a bad match between what he wants and what's available, and I find it sad in a way I'm not sure how to articulate. His preferences would have absolutely worked in his favor if he'd been straight, there would be no end of women queuing up to marry him, perhaps even three at a time.
He doesn't plan to come out publicly, which seems to me like a reasonable decision rather than a failure of nerve. India is not the country it was in 2013 on this issue. It's also not a country where "my son is gay" lands the same way in a rural extended family as it does in a Mumbai apartment, and the collateral damage to our parents from a wider family reaction would be real. My mother's side is probably fine, they're upper class cosmopolitan liberals. My father's is more rural and uneven. Even the people who would eventually come around might do damage on the way to coming around, and my brother has done the math on this and decided he'd rather not. I think that's reasonable: he has thick skin, but it's our parents who would suffer from the scandal. Keeping things on the down-low is simply the most pragmatic choice either way, for the foreseeable future. Yet I do not want him to have to live a lie.
One thing I keep noticing, now that I know: he passes as straight without any effort at all. He likes fast cars and action movies and video games. He is more fastidious and picky about clothing than I am, but well within the range of normality for heterosexual men. He was about as good as hiding his orientation as one can be, while refusing to screw dozens of hot women. He is as straight as one can be without actually being straight.
He has no patience for flamboyant men of any orientation, and his boyfriend is similarly nothing like that. This is relevant mostly because it's part of why I half-believed the aromantic explanation for as long as I did, which now strikes me as a somewhat embarrassing failure of imagination on my part.
He told me, among other things, about a gay doctor who had opened a hookup conversation by requesting golden showers with no other preamble. He found it funny that I immediately opened that essay I mentioned on my phone - a piece I've written about my experiences at the gay pub, which apparently contains my own account of politely declining the same request. We have more in common than I'd realized. Neither of us are looking for quickies with gay men, albeit for rather different reasons.
I told him he should have told me earlier. He said he thought I'd be fine with it. I said he was right about that, and that he should have told me earlier anyway. This didn't really go anywhere productive, but I think we both understood what we were trying to say. I am sad that it took him this long to find the confidence to express himself, but I absolutely do not hold it against him.
I've made gay jokes at his expense, in the past, not knowing. He says he never minded and wants me to act exactly the way I always have, and I've agreed to this, and I'm still a little sorry. He's told me not to be. I think both of these positions can coexist without one of them needing to win.
The thing that is keeping me up tonight, l is that I can't actually do much. I can love him and I do and I will. I can be the person he calls. I can be the person who acts the same as always. What I can't do is fix the relationship situation, or make my father's heart stronger, or speed up whatever social change would make this easier for him. I can't make the world different from what it is.
If anyone has practical advice rather than reassurance/validation, I'd be glad to have it. I'm not looking for confirmation that I'm a good person for loving my brother without conditions, which I do not consider an achievement. I want to know if there's something useful I can actually do.
Options discussed with him include emigration, continuing to pretend to be asexual, or even a lavender marriage with a beard of the lesbian type. He is too ethical to trick even an eager straight woman into marrying him for the sake of cover, and he wants to be close to his real partner, whoever that turns out to be. He is also less than keen on permanently moving abroad, at least for anything longer than a residency. He wants children, biologically his, and I want this for him too. I think he'd be a good dad, and that I'd be a good uncle.
(He's confident he's gay rather than bi. The one time he kissed a girl in high school was, in his words, awful, and he reports no meaningful response to straight pornography. If he were bi I'd probably have given him the pragmatic advice to sleep with men for a while and then settle down with a woman, which is the easier path through the particular society we grew up in. That option isn't on the table.)
PS: He is okay with me asking here.
truly complex situation, in which primarily you cannot be the unbiased psychiatrist (howsoever you may want to be).
(personally, i am in similar but precursor situation as you. i found about my bro is gay/bi through my very close friend who found out about my bro from his friend circle. so my bro has not come out to me, since he doesn't need to. he has two girls also, and for social sake (my mother), bro and his wife are keeping it under wraps. overall, a very complicated social and personal situation. i can just be an observer without untangling the problem).
in short, be active supporter (not passive). engage a neutral therapist for him, which need not leak info to you even (patient-doctor confidentiality, which your bro can trust). and ask/nudge him to pursue wider social net.
Thank you. That is a very substantive and helpful reply, not that I would expect otherwise from you!
I am slightly shocked and surprised, but only in the sense that I am saddened that he didn't feel ready to tell me earlier, and because of the personal difficulties he's faced and will face without the opportunity for me to support him. We've talked about this, a lot, albeit far from enough. I think he's rather relieved that the two members of his family he opened up to did nothing but shower him with love and support. Of course, we will talk about this further, I just think I've finally had a much clearer picture of what's going on.
I am optimistic that it won't take months or years for me to process this. I did somewhat suspect, after all, and I can't see any change in how I treat him. I even cracked the usual jokes today, we're not walking on eggshells. His sexuality is nothing to me when compared to his health, happiness and career.
I am treating him as my little brother, and absolutely do not intend to become his psychiatrist or therapist. I don't think he needs one very strongly, he's more stoic and pragmatic (and functional, in some ways) than I've ever been. The biggest complaint I can make about him these days is that he doesn't study hard enough, and to be fair I did the bare minimum in med school. I asked if he was depressed, and barring rather reasonable episodes of sadness for understandable reasons, I didn't get that impression that all. He's more worried about my mental health than his own, and so am I in all honesty.
If I ever see any cause for concern, I will press on him strongly to see a neutral third party, that's a promise. Even if he doesn't need any medication, talking things through can only help and it already has. We are a close-knit and loving family that rarely keeps secrets form each other, and I am immensely grateful for that.
Regarding the end of his relationship:
While I like his "best friend" as a best friend, he hasn't been the perfect boyfriend for my brother. I won't go into too much detail here, but there are reasons beyond him being bi that would make me strongly advise my brother against seeing this a lifelong affair. Once again, not a bad person, and I am fond of him too, but residency and distance have killed many a heterosexual relationship already.
Right now, the BF is having second thoughts about breaking up. So is my brother. My dad is charmingly clueless, and wants them to move into an apartment together so they can either work or study full time (the BF is far better at academics, and he's optimistic it'll rub off, I suspect other things will be rubbed off too). Maybe they can stretch things out a year or two, it's not necessarily imminent.
I have strongly ordered him to let me know if and when the breakup happens, no matter where I am. I intend to be there for him, and I will call or at least text far more regularly than I already do. He is justifiably annoyed that I have the same character traits that make me withdraw and reduce contact when I'm not doing so hot myself.
Good ideas. There is a lot of practical benefit to him staying in India, both for financial reasons and to keep an eye on our increasingly elderly parents, but if that comes at the cost of his happiness, I'm booking the visa and flight for him.
I swear I had known about the single parent thing at some point, but it had slipped my mind. I'll have to double check if it's an issue for a married gay couple. Of course, legal channels are not the only option in this country, nor does he have to stick to this country forever.
Oh, I can see why this hit close to home. I'm not sorry for you, because I don't see much to be sorry about! I do hope your brother is bi and not gay, not for moral reasons, but because that is a kind of compromise that is far easier to make, even in the West. Good luck to the both of you, and I hope one day he finds the strength to open up to you about it. I'm sure you love him dearly and will treat him just the same. This is the kind of shit that brothers are for.
I will do all of this right away, except possibly the therapy -(unless I see a clearer indication). Thank you again, this is precisely the kind of advice I had hoped to receive after mustering up the courage to share this, even pseudonymously.
regarding my own situation, ngl, sometimes i do feel (when i read post like this) to just blast off my bro - why the hell are you not telling me this and should have told me a long time back (whenever you understood that yourself). and i have come to know about it through a third person (although, that third person is more brotherly than him, tbh). etc.
his wife is the one who has the most difficult situation, from my POV. so for her sake, things remaining unknown to most is a reasonable solution. but it still is an emotional issue.
regarding the stoic nature of your bro. sometimes, it is just an outer shell (speaking from my own experience) while there is lot of internal emotional turmoil. personally, you should just be there for him, if and when he wants to have your support. that's all.
I don't know how I'd have reacted if I had found out through a third party and had to wait ages for my brother to come clean. Can't blame you for feeling some bitterness about it either; if I had to guess, I'd probably get impatient and seriously confront him, albeit with good intent. In a way, the fact that I have multiple (often turbulent) trysts with women has annoyed/exhausted my parents to the point that probably felt relieved with a son who didn't let women get to his head. I need to ask him to buy me a drink for running cover, even if it's accidental haha.
My brother genuinely is more emotionally resilient than I am. God knows that the dysthymia and depressive tendencies came to me from my mom, and he mostly lucked out. Still, I'll keep a close eye, and my mom is perceptive and will manage any concerns once I'm back to the UK!
Hmm. That really is a tricky situation. For her sake, I hope your brother is simply bi, and suppressing his desire to have sex with men while in a relationship, in the same way most men suppress their desire to sleep with other women while married. I do not want to judge him for misleading someone by feigning interest in women while purely gay, but then again, I don't think I could get hard enough to penetrate a man in the first place if that was asked of me. Presumably, with two kids, the attraction is non-negligible. I can only hope his marriage is stable despite the difficulties, and at this point it's a non-trivial problem with no easy answers. You seem like a caring brother, so I do hope he at least acknowledges it at some point. I agree that it's not worth poking at too hard unless someone is clearly suffering.
i make myself understand that there is nothing i can do about it. both of them have to manage as best as they can. i can only support both of them, as best as i can, and when needed (if there is). he is prolly not a bi. so, it is technically a problem. but other things are bigger issues. they are a happy family from social point of view.
i feel, it will become a very self-regarding move to relieve my own emotional itch, rather than something which he feels the need for. this is also why i feel that whatever be your bro's relative resilience as compared to yours, since he has come to you at this point (at the juncture of possible LTR breakup, there is a deeper need for you to be there for him actively. in any case, life is always interesting and worth (even in the worst of situations, there is always something to look for).
i watched "It's a Wonderful Life" few days back. and it is a must watch. it is a fairly common recommendation for US/UK people, but not for us (in general).
I wouldn't be quite that harsh on yourself. Some aspects of a person they're set on keeping to themselves might well be your business: say a friend or family member doing dangerous drugs, and you find out through an oblique route. It's a bit tenuous to connect that to sexuality as an analogy, but I hope you get my drift. You have every right to feel some level of dissatisfaction, and I wouldn't hold it against you if you did ask him outright. Just being gay, is as far as I'm concerned, totally fine. A marriage of convenience (potentially one-sided convenience) changes the calculus somewhat. I can't blame you if you intervened on behalf of his wife and kids, though I'm not sure there's even a reason to intervene, and what you really want is to have him just tell you the truth and explain why he kept it from your his entire life.
If his wife is okay, and the kids are happy, then it does make sense to not rock the boat. Then again, she might be deeply embarrassed and unwilling to speak out because she fears the social and personal consequences. She wouldn't be the first person to stick around in an unhappy/lukewarm marriage for pragmatic reasons. (I am absolutely not bold enough to claim this is the case, I don't any of the people involved!)
On the other hand, simply politely telling him you found out and you're disappointed by the charade is not, as far as I can gauge, a bad thing to do. And I suspect that is all you consider doing.
I'm lucky that even during my worst bouts of depression, it never went from passive/intrusive thoughts to active suicidal ideation or planning. But if it had, you bet that I would have fought hard to remind myself that I would be sorely missed by my family and other loved ones. I hope nobody in the stories we've shared has reached that point.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link