This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
If there's an online grooming gang involved (and is it even grooming when we're talking about a legal adult?), then I would call the cops and ask them to take care of it, presuming that the activity was illegal.
I think physical restraint is, usually, a drastic escalation and violation of autonomy. My friends and family can pull me out of the way of a truck, but I'd yell at them if they stopped me from going out on a date with someone they don't like.
If my daughter told me she was going to attempt suicide, or do fentanyl, then I think I would do quite a few things that are clearly illegal, and damn the consequences. Starting an OF or doing sex work is not ideal, but not nearly as bad.
I have done plenty of things that my parents didn't approve of at that age. Some of those things went well for me, others... the opposite. A part of becoming an adult is realizing that the typical parent (mine and hopefully yours) is actually quite wise and knows what's good for you, even if they aren't omniscient.
I have my own issues with using age as the (primary) standard for capacity. I know 15 year old I'd trust to run a business, and 35 year olds who shouldn't operate a lemonade stand. I am too tired to go into exhaustive detail regarding the specifics of my views, but you can imagine something like a citizenship/adulthood/competence exam that anyone is allowed to try at any age. Nothing overly onerous, but enough to eliminate the idiots. You can pass it at 16 and legally emancipate yourself, or you might not make it till you're dying of old age if you're legitimately stupid. Then perhaps more demanding and specific tests for things that are quite clearly bad for you. Think Yudkowsky's Shop That Sells Banned Products.
You want to get surgery done by someone who isn't a licensed professional? Sure, pass this test of literacy and demonstrate an understanding of the principles of the Scientific Method and why med school is a good idea (you don't have to agree, you just have to understand), sign a few waivers, wait a week, and you're good to go. That includes waiving liability or the ability to seek compensation from the State.
If you break your spine while driving drunk, or lose your dick while fucking a blender, then I don't see why society should have to foot the bill. Maybe drug addicts who are violent, criminally inclined and disruptive and entirely unwilling to accept help shouldn't be eligible for housing or most welfare. If they're doing coke on weekends and making a million dollars a year as a quant, why the hell should I care?
Incredibly enjoying this discussion since its one of the few times I'm seeing major daylight between our respective positions, despite coming from almost identical premises, it seems.
I'm gathering that you're ultimately fine with full on Social and Natural Darwinism for deciding punishments and outcomes for risky behavior... but there's a certain amount of nuance when it comes to your own progeny.
Well let me drill down on that a bit. If you believed that her doing sex work was more likely than not (i.e. 51%) to make it so that she'd be unable to marry a reliable, respectable, supportive husband and thus grievously impact her financial future, her odds of being a mother, her overall mental health, are you still going to stand on the 'autonomy' position, even if she's getting some malicious actor whispering in her ear (but, importantly NOT coercing her)? Yes, I would hope she'd listen to her loving father over the Casanova trying to pimp her out, but if she slips up this one time that might be all it takes.
The position I'm arguing is that there are things that can create lifelong misery and consequences that are nonetheless NOT as serious as death or dismemberment, but have outsized negative impact compared to their benefits. Yes, people should be able to pursue such things. But if your own child, in their youthful indiscretion, is about to go jump off a metaphorical cliff into the water below,
Wouldn't you be willing to take some serious measures to avert that?
I mean, depends a bit on what "they don't like" actually means. "This woman is riddled with STDs and has a history of violent outbursts" might justify trying to stop you. But yes, that's a fair distinction.
Full on? Definitely not. I'd rather we make everyone smarter and saner instead, and I think that is a real option. I see several Fix Everything switches if I look around. Nuclear power, an end to NIMBYism, institutionalization of the mentally ill homeless (I have a US bias, some places don't have Fix Everything switches).
But time and money and effort are not in nigh-infinite abundance today. I prescribe policy that works the best for the world as it is, at least as I see it, not some kind of AGI-having post scarcity utopia. There are a lot of people who make everyone strictly worse off for reasons that can't be easily fixed or excused by circumstances completely out of their control. I think we can be harsher on them, for the sake of the super-majority. If you shoplift a dozen times and end up in and out of custody for more serious crimes, I want the book thrown at you. If you murder and rob over and over again, then you might age out of it, but prison is expensive (and has scope to be much cheaper even in the US) and sometimes the death penalty just makes sense (it should be cheaper too).
I am not advocating for some kind of free for all or maximal libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism, at least not today.
If it was actually that bad? Yup. But at least in reality, I don't think it's remotely as bad. And if she figures out it's a bad idea and wants to pivot away, it is far from impossible to salvage a good life.
Like I said, if OF caused giga-AIDS, we should ban it. But not even actual AIDS kills >51% of people, let alone merely things that could cause AIDS.
Why wouldn't I? I hope it's clear that I'm grading according to perceived risk and damage. If my daughter was going to inject herself with a needle filled with literal HIV solution, I'd stop her with force. If it was a needle dropped by a junkie or if she was doing fent, I'd do so too. But come on, are you saying starting an OF is remotely as dangerous? If not, I think my decision to remain within legal bounds is both pragmatically valid and in accordance with my values.
Given that I've just used HIV for my argument so far, sure, I think I'd understand if they did stop me. I certainly wouldn't cut contact or press charges.
I'm off to bed in a bit, but a pleasure nonetheless. I don't think your views are unreasonable, even if we do have our differences.
See, we're really in agreement on almost everything else.
But I'll just push that one point: how many people ended up as 'mentally ill homeless' because there wasn't an intervention earlier on in their life to keep them on a more productive track?
We've got the tech to make this so, but in living memory it was a mass killer of humans.
And the tech that keeps it at bay relies on a fairly fragile supply chain, so if that goes, it comes back with a vengeance.
Its that sort of thing that makes me believe that we should in fact try to push towards a social order that is more robust against AIDS transmission (same for other serious diseases) as a backstop against a decline in our technological capacity.
And I do feel similarly about other technological solutions that blunt the impact of but do not eliminate some negative effect.
I have seen some cases of women who go into that line of work and it seemingly crushes their spirits, collapses their social networks, and ultimately puts them in an emotional condition that wrecks their ability to maintain a romantic connection. I think this impact is at least on the order of that of getting addicted to a hard drug, although it is probably easier to recover if you have support.
Although its most likely that there was some pre-existing mental condition that explains both that outcome and why they tried sex work in the first place.
I've talked to some girls who indicate the main thing keeping them from trying it themselves is their apparently overdeveloped sense of shame, and I'm like "okay but can you not hit on actual logical bases to avoid it, aside from the emotional aversion?"
(Lets be fair, I also DESPISE Multi-level marketing schemes and would love to nuke those from orbit, and would take measures to keep my kids from falling into that trap too, although I'd like to think my kids would know the math well enough to see why those won't work.) OF has many of the same aspects as MLMs when you look at how it works in practice, but you're burning up more than just your time and money if you try to take it seriously.
Yep, good to point out where we are different in our beliefs so the others don't catch on LOL.
I'd have to look that up instead of guessing, but I expect it's substantial. That's assuming that "interventions" include the forceful or consensual use of psychiatric intervention. The outcomes for schizophrenia and bipolar after treatment, while not as great as I'd like, significantly beats going untreated.
By the time people have exhausted their social safety net and have ended up on the streets, it's often too late to restore them to functionality. At that point? It's an asylum or bust. Perhaps @Throwaway05 might have a better understanding the conditions in the US, I'm being general here.
If sex work is a legitimately bad idea for the majority of people (which I think is true), then the people who still opt for it will tend towards being stupid, impulsive or mentally ill. But I do not think that is a permanent, irrevocable fact that is impervious to change in attitudes. A world where most women and men think OF is fine will have more normal people working in it.
Think of how tattoos used to be a strong sign of criminality, and how you can see grandpas and yuppies flaunting them in public. Circumstances and attitudes change.
I'm not saying they can't be compared, I think you can usefully compare apples and oranges (it's such a dumb metaphor). But this is an empirical question, and one I'm not ready to research at 2 am. If you have evidence to the contrary, do share and I promise to take a look later!
(Hard drugs also encompass a wide range of drugs, some of them MUCH worse for you)
If a grown child of mine is dumb enough to fall for an MLM, then I'd disown them on principle. Seriously, I might give them myopia, depressive tendencies or ADHD, but I refuse to take responsibility for stupidity. Blame their mom instead.
You know we can't sell it if you keep breaking character right? I knew that inducing DID with heroic doses of ketamine wasn't the best idea, but I didn't think you'd be quite so fractious. Fine, once I'm asleep you can take over our advocacy, just remember to water the succulent and throw out the trash. If you keep being lazy, I will take the antipsychotics like I threatened.
Face tattoos and certain socially taboo symbols still work pretty well though.
And in fact, the proliferation in women getting stupid tattoos is ANOTHER point on which I'd try to dissuade my hypothetical daughter, since the costs of undoing it are substantial, but that's not one I'd be as aggressive about policing.
I am really annoyed with the fact that some women end up getting whole sleeves done very shortly after they turn 18, which again seems a bit too early for most towards grasping the long term consequences.
Yes, the actual physical toll that such drugs take on the body is much worse, but in terms of eroding one's mental health and cutting off social networks, its probably on the same order, since the type of people who will keep you in their social network knowing you're a sex worker are probably not great as a support system. As a point, I'd imagine that other women wouldn't really want their husbands or boyfriends around you if your career is known.
So you'll be mostly stuck with other women who can't keep steady relationships... and men who think you're a potential lay.
Wait, I thought that was a plastic plant. Oh dear.
I also noticed that the dog went missing from the last time I took over, please tell me she's boarded somewhere pleasant and not roaming the streets looking for more roadkill lasagna.
The point is that tattoos are, in fact, normalized and a far less reliable sign of dysfunction than they once were. The most basic bitch people get them, albeit if you see full sleeves and facial tattoos, I'd be cautious. The association with impulsivity and poor decision making, while very much real, also doesn't matter if you are able to apply basic judgement to behavior and context. I'd date and marry women with tattoos, at least tasteful ones.
And I put up those sticky notes for nothing, let alone the permanent marker on our skin. Just don't break anything, and the dog wasn't too sick. With the rate we're replacing houseplants, we've got to work on cutting down veterinary expenses.
Yes, normalizing things means you get more 'normal' people doing them.
Which is often not good.
And of course pushes the actual deviants to ever more costly signalling to boot.
I'd suggest we are seeing the same thing with OF/sex work, and that's the broader reason why pushback would be good.
I spent an hour in the shower scrubbing those off last time, and I still had to wear long sleeves for the next two days. I'd prefer you just staple the notes straight to our chest.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link