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Israel obviously did genocide when the State was founded. And some elements of apartheid seem obviously true. Those it’s fine to say might makes right. I sort of believe segregation is good.
It's not obvious to me. Would you mind defining "genocide" for purposes of this discussion?
Similar question: What is "apartheid" and what are the elements?
I have found that in these types of discussions, Israel's critics tend to use a lot of loaded words and phrases such as "apartheid," "genocide," "Palestinian land," etc.
However I have found that these people are extremely reluctant to actually define these words and phrases. And the reason seems pretty obvious to me. There's no principled way to define these words and phrases such that (1) they yield the desired conclusion regarding Israel; while (2) they DON'T reach an undesired conclusion regarding large numbers of other countries/groups.
But perhaps this exchange will be different. So . . . .
You claim that Israel "obviously did genocide when the State was founded" What do you mean by "genocide"?
You claim that Israel has "some elements of apartheid" What do you mean by "apartheid" and what elements are you referring to?
This is obviously genocide. Palestinians didn’t leave Israel because they wanted to. They left because Jews were killing them. It’s backed by declassified Israel intel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#:~:text=During%20the%201948%20Palestine%20war,an%20instance%20of%20ethnic%20cleansing.
Israel would never let political power shift to a point that Jews do not have overwhelming decision making ability. That’s apartheid.
Not sure why people need to insist Jews have never done anything bad. Or perhaps in this case normal things nation-states do to creat country’s.
I am making no claim that other country’s including the US haven’t done similar things. We genocide the Indian which I’m fine with.
Ok, so if some some or all members of Group A flee an area because some members of the same Group A are being killed by members of Group B, then it's "genocide" according to your definition. Agreed?
Ok, so if some Group A has control of a country; and that Group A is determined not to let any Group B undermine that control, it's "apartheid" according to your definition. Agreed?
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Can you give a few specific examples of people "insist[ing] Jews have never done anything bad"?
I agree with the definitions you have described as genocide. The systematic killing of another group due to the it ethnicity is genocide.
Apartheid is a little stretching. One group has more rights than another group.
Ok, so under your definition of "genocide," it doesn't matter if a group (or part of a group) flees? Any time (1) some number people are killed; and (2) the killing was motivated significantly by the ethnicity of those people, then it's "genocide" under your definition?
Ok, so any time there is a country where one group has more rights than another group, it's "apartheid"? Do I understand you correctly?
Also, can you give a few specific examples of people "insist[ing] Jews have never done anything bad"?
The obvious example of this: “ Also, can you give a few specific examples of people "insist[ing] Jews have never done anything bad"?”
Would be you yourself. You are being highly critical and sarcastic about me staying Jews did genocide. There has long been a taboo that any criticism of Jews is antisemtic in America.
Why is it so hard for you to call the Nakba a genocide? For the most part I am a supporter of the Nakba.
Ok, please quote me where I "insist[ed] Jews have never done anything bad"
Umm, because it wasn't? Let's break it down:
(1) The Arabs attempted to slaughter and chase out all the Jews in British Mandatory Palestine.
(2) As part of that attempt, many Arabs fled due to the ongoing war to other parts of what had been the Ottoman Empire, e.g. Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan.
(3) The attempt failed (a disaster for the Arabs) and the Jews successfully set up a state (Israel);
(4) The Jews (now Israelis) correctly realized that to (somewhat) secure their safety they had to (a) bar the return of Arabs who had fled; and (b) eject a subset of the Arabs who had stayed from certain key areas. The remaining Arabs were allowed to stay.
(5) At no time did the Jews attempt to wipe out the Arab population of the area wholesale, and in fact to this day Israel has a significant Arab minority.
So at worst, this was a limited ethnic cleansing.
That being said, you are free to define the word "genocide" any way you like for purposes of discussion. Which brings me back to my questions.
(1) So under your definition of "genocide," it doesn't matter if a group (or part of a group) flees? Any time (1) some number people are killed; and (2) the killing was motivated significantly by the ethnicity of those people, then it's "genocide" under your definition?
(2) Ok, so any time there is a country where one group has more rights than another group, it's "apartheid"? Do I understand you correctly?
Because the thing is, there's no point in arguing over whether the labels "genocide" or "apartheid" apply unless we understand what those words mean.
So I would appreciate answers to my questions so I can confirm what you mean by the words "genocide" and "apartheid."
Also, as mentioned above, please quote me where I "insist[ed] Jews have never done anything bad
They literally killed a minimum of 2% of the population in those areas. Poisoned drinking water. The Jews killed enough civilians until the rest left.
You denying a genocide is what I’m talking about “Jews can do no wrong”. And I’m not even calling this genocide wrong. Groups have interests. Killing the tribe next door is something every civilization has done.
Ok I’ll play - so what do you consider a genocide? 10% of civilian population murdered? 50%? 75%?
This is a bit like the old joke: “ I asked a women if she would have sex with me for a $1 million and she said yes. I then asked her if she would go to bed with me for $100 and she said “What do you think I’m a whore”? We’ve established what you are now we are just quibbling over price.
I assume you would consider the Holocausts as a genocide. High end figures said 67% of European Jews died. But if the Jews would have just left then no genocide.
If we are doing official UN definitions: “Genocide is the deliberate, systematic destruction—in whole or in part—of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, according to the UN Genocide Convention. It involves specific acts committed with the intent to destroy the group, such as killing members, causing serious harm, or creating conditions leading to their physical destruction.”
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