This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The vast majority have not gone back to China, and the other direction you didn't address. Americans don't move to China. Why is that, if China is so great?
There is (or more like was) a big expat community in China, I'm sure if they could they would have loved to take roots there. China just doesn't allow much immigration if at all. The supply just isn't there even if there is demand.
How big is it compared to the expat community of Chinese in the United States?
Despite the US being 1/3 of the population of China, there are 4 times more Chinese immigrants living in the United States than all immigrants living in China.
How do you explain that if China is so great?
I just reviewed my comments. I should have said "Not sure if Chinese prefer migrating to America is all true these days". Look, I don't disagree with you. I am an immigrant to the US myself and certainly think it's a better place for me and that the place would be better with me in it. And about the dynamics of immigration, China has never been welcoming and has a strong cultural and social identity on what it means to be Chinese, not to mention the process sucks even harder than the US in some ways. If one looks at immigration by percentage of population, China stands out in both how powerful/rich it is compared to its immigration population. But the sentiment is changing and that's what I meant by pointing out that "Not sure if that's true these days". We've all read the many posts about Deepseek and Chinese tech companies, they are certainly full of talents and people who isn't really leaving anymore. Would they if they could? maybe. Target, desire, opportunity, the triangle of crime is a great way to explain how people make choices anyway. Opportunities for foreigners in China since the CPC came to power has remained few relatively even if they have the target and desire, but opportunities and desire for Chinese nationals to stay have increased.
I think it can still shake out in surprising ways. China led in just three of 64 technologies in 2003–20074 but is now the lead country in 57 of 64 technologies in 2019–2023, increasing its lead from our rankings last year (2018–2022), where it was leading in 52 technologies.. I certainly read a ton of chinese webnovels and to me the Chinese authors are very very creative. The weight of Chinese population requires both US + Europe combined to counterbalance. Xi is iron-fisted, but Chinese people as a whole are prosperous and growing.
I am most worried for China about the demographic collapse, the gender gap. I thought China actually handled the real estate bubble well. I am of the belief that American people are still angry that no one really got punished for the 2008 crisis (that they got chumped) and that anger animates all the elections since. I don't like China's lack of freedoms, China homogeneous view of society, etc. but I don't discount that for much of its population that the balance is fine.
You are missing the point: nobody likes China, not even the Chinese. They flee from China at a rate much higher than people flee to China. Therefore, your ethnic chauvinism is misplaced. You said:
This is not a good thing. This is why people don't like China or Chinese immigration. Studying too much is selfish and doesn't benefit society. It's bad behavior. It should not be celebrated.
This is categorically false, go ask a random Chinese person in China whether they like China.
Not by this chart, I see that there are 134 countries with higher net migration than China (so more going out than going in), and 96 countries with higher net migration than China (so more going in than going out). China has a net migration rate of -0.1/1000, which I understand as means for every 10k people, one person leaves (or 2 person emigrated from china and 1 person immigrated to China). Population growth essentially papered over the differences easily for Chinese population is certainly still increasing and not decreasing.
I don't think you're the first one on this forum that has expressed this viewpoint. I am against it. I like studying. I am naturally curious. It was lucky of me that what I enjoy also align with what my originating background valued. Yes we have cultures and civilizations and people who enjoy and put on a pedestal studying. I think society has benefited from me "studying too much" and from others "studying too much". I'm reminded of this quote from The West Wing: "It's not that you don't like guns, you just don't like people who like guns" and I'm reminded of you.
edit1: now that I wrote it out I kinda understand the chicken egg problem in that quote lol.
It's a face-saving culture and a police state. Revealed preferences speak louder.
Eyeing these charts, China has lost on average 300,000 per year since 2000, and the USA has gained 1.2 million. That's roughly 7.5 million leaving China, and 30 million people entering the US.
About Gaokao and SAT questions? That naturally keeps you up at night? Are you sure? Is it really just the curiosity which the Chinese are internationally renowned for that drives their excessive studying?
Ah, but studying what? Does the United States really benefit when a Chinese immigrant spends 800 hours studying for the SAT starting in junior high, when the American norm is <8 hours of studying for the SAT? Does the United States really benefit when Chinese immigrants become supercilious towards their host, proclaiming that „Americans have it too easy and need to study harder” ?
Society benefits when smart people invent, not when they study. It benefits indirectly by studying when smart people study how to invent. Studying for standardized tests is not that.
Return rates of Chinese students abroad have consistently increased since then, with around 80 percent returning between 2016 and 2019..
You're speaking to the same crowd here. Again, I am an immigrant, I'm not denying that USA is a more attractive destination than China for me personally. I am on this US-centric forum after all and relishing in American way of living and American values. I'm just saying that Chinese people's yearning for America has reduced.
I've personally remembered really like learning the new words and vocab for the SAT. Some of the text in the reading questions was actually quite interesting on their own if I didn't have to answer the questions too. I do think my natural curiosity made it easier to do the grind. I think you're asking me if I would seek out SAT tests then I agree I don't. I think finally we get to what you meant (which I missed) which is that you "dislike too much studying for test taking purposes". I was arguing against "dislike too much studying".
Yes. Does America wants the exceptional or not? America does not benefit from a Chinese student spending 800 hours studying the SAT, but America certainly benefits from a Chinese immigrant who spent 800 hours studying the SAT. Studying extremely extremely hard is not mutually exclusive to being creative. The value of hard work is pretty much common sense.
If you look at my original comment ("My first immediate thought is Americans live on easy mode. For East Asians, top of graduating class would mean minimum 1500.") or the subsequent comments, I did not ascribe good or bad value to "Americans live it on easy mode", you projected that yourself.
As for whether I think Americans should study more, yes, I do. Not to the excessive level of your strawman example, but I do think Americans should take heed of their own advice
The value of hard work is that it allows the less capable to attain, by rote, some of the diligence and understanding that comes naturally to the more capable. It is a virtue when it allows one to be useful rather than not. When selected for in highly competitive spheres that ought to require talent and creativity, it burns billions of man-hours on rat racing against each other and accomplishing little other than letting employers demand higher credentials for the same level of actual competence.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link