site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

If you believe the universe is deterministic, everything is clockwork and springs.

But even if you have some sort of fuzzy metaphysics where you intellectually understand that everything is clockwork but for some reason, humans are not, or you act as if they are not, current LLMs are still very much clockwork and springs.

Yes, it is fascinating that feeding ungodly amounts of data to Transformers produces this. But you would need a REALLY fuzzy demarcation of what "sentience" is actually to find yourself confused (philosophically) about all this (a sufficiently poor understanding of math withstanding).


By extension, this might be a hot take but I think having fuzzy demarcation might also suggest that you are bad at reading other humans.

It's not exactly uncommon that people can take advantage of you by appealing/exploiting to emotion. Not falling for such manipulation requires a clear (pragmatic) head more than a heart of stone. You need to be able to demarcate the appearance of honesty/vulnerability from its actual incarnation (or lack of it). Apply being able to differentiate the appearance of something from all other things when dealing with other agents.

Yes, it is fascinating that feeding ungodly amounts of data to Transformers produces this. But you would need a REALLY fuzzy demarcation of what "sentience" is actually to find yourself confused (philosophically) about all this (a sufficiently poor understanding of math withstanding).

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I agree with your first paragraph, which is to say I believe clockwork and springs give rise to sentience. So why would it be foolish to consider that LLMs might be sentient?

It's not exactly uncommon that people can take advantage of you by appealing/exploiting to emotion. Not falling for such manipulation requires a clear (pragmatic) head more than a heart of stone.

On that note, the argument that AIs will be able to argue their way out of boxes becomes ever more convincing. Maybe most people with access to them will remember the "keep the AI in a box no matter what" rule, but not all of them, not all of the time as the AIs "learn" to prey on this sort of manipulation.

I would argue just the opposite.

An AI worm is inevitable, assuming that the size restraints from copying itself can be overcome either through shrinking model size or through increased storage capacity and transmission speeds.

This is the real first battleground, I think. We need to learn how to build resilient systems, and I'm convinced that we need new concepts for it.

They hooked this thing up to the internet. There is no box. If you are a public figure, saying bad things about Sydney could plausibly give people negative Bing Search results about you RIGHT NOW. This is “I for one welcome our new insect overlords,” but for real.

as the AIs "learn" to prey on this sort of manipulation.

This is the sort of problem you'd usually approach by removing the human's choices to do the wrong thing, so called "interlocks" where to perform an action you'd first need to do some prerequisites which put the system into a known "safe" state. Thus the action of preparing to open the box would necessitate the nuking of its contents.