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I was following with interest the recent discussion here on the degenerate nature of hardcore anime fandom and I find that there are aspects to this that nobody mentioned. In this comment I'd like to call attention to one of these. Namely:
I propose the argument that feminist ideology has reached a level of cultural influence in the West sometime around 2008-2012 where unironic* depictions of conventionally attractive, sexually alluring, non-girlboss female characters have become taboo in the eyes of normie women**.
*Unironic in the sense that it's by no means done for the purpose of ironically conveying some politicized message about the sad reality of the male gaze, societal sexism etc.
**That is, women that are either lipstick feminists or conform to the norms of the (surely present) lipstick feminist women in their social circle. In other words, the big majority of women, or at least of young urban women.
Since the Japanese anime industry does not abide by these cultural norms, the consequence of this is that anime as a whole is increasingly suspect in the eyes of normie/NPC women, which has at least two consequences of its own. One: the male partners and/or friends of these women, who are usually cucky and normie-oriented betas, evidently adopt the same view, which contribute to its spread. Two: this provides an incentive to notice, thematize and even embellish the off-putting manifestations of anime fandom.
I'd make two more related observations as potential food for thought from this very forum.
@urquan has made a somewhat similar point before: resolute (male) attempts to counter-signal against the taboo on sexual display in a workplace setting are intensely off-putting to normie women. (The difference here is between intensely off-putting and, well, merely off-putting.)
This comment by @WhiningCoil also caught my attention:
Considering that the Berserk franchise contains excessive amounts of brutal violence, horror and gore, and as does Game of Thrones, plus not only "sexposition" but also explicit sex, rape, incest etc., I find it telling that it was a groping scene (which, it should be mentioned, was unironically accidental) that finally crossed the line in her eyes.
And finally a general point: this entire phenomenon has no female counterpart. That is, we see no similar widespread disapproval of (more or less) goonerbait cultural material directed at women. In fact, it appears to me that there is a general push to normalize it.
I don't watch much television or movie content, but what about the television show Landman? It seems like there are a lot of female characters who are basically there to be eye candy. For example:
In an early episode, there is a scene where some of the characters order coffee from a coffee shop called "Babes 'n Brew." The girl working the counter is an impossibly attractive young woman wearing a bikini top. By "impossibly," I mean that in real life you would pretty much never see a woman this attractive, dressed like that, working a job like that, in that part of the country.
One of the main characters, played by Billy Bob Thornton, has a college-aged daughter who is highly attractive and spends a lot of time parading around in a bikini.
In another scene, there is a drug smuggler type who is shown taking a call from Billy Bob Thornton's character while sitting in a strip club; in the background there are various unrealistically attractive women dancing around while wearing very little.
I do concede that the culture has become more hostile to this sort of fan service. For example, I remember the movie "The Fifth Element" from about 30 years ago. The movie has numerous attractive, sexily dressed female characters working in roles such as stewardess, receptionist, and fast food clerk. I think it would be hard to make a movie with roles like that today, in part due to the influence of feminism. But I also think there's another possible factor, which is that pornography has become so easily available that it's not as much of a selling point to include this sort of stuff in a movie.
I disagree with your last point. Sometimes I get so tired of porn because it's so fake. I don't want to really see trashy sluts getting banged all the time, just sometimes. But I settle for that because that's the closest alternative. But I often want to see cute girls going through the early stages of romance, blushing, being cute and awkward, wrestling with really feelings. Sometimes I'll see a movie that features that and it grabs me.
Perhaps my point was more narrow than it should have been. I was talking about the practice of putting sexy women, typically in sexy clothing (or no clothing at all), into television and movies where from the context it seems that the main point (or a large part of the point) is to titillate viewers. For this type of stipulation, it seems like online pornography would be a pretty good substitute.
I think it's worth pointing out that online pornography (or at least what I would call online pornography) is a lot broader than this. For example, a website which is devoted to showing pictures of women in short dresses and skirts. So defined, it's easy to see that there is a lot of overlap between online pornography and the sort of fan service I am talking about.
Well would you say that what you have described (cute girls going through the early stages of romance) has become (to some extent) taboo due to the influence of feminism?
Adding to what @haroldbkny already said, the principle is still worth defending.
I rarely watch mainstream media that features black people anymore, even when their presence is technically plausible within the setting. Not because I harbour some pathological hatred of blacks (I don't), but because experience has taught me that “plausibility” is almost entirely incidental.
Beyond a certain budget, an all white, all straight, gender conforming cast with traditional sex roles is effectively forbidden. The industry treats demographic representation and progressive tropes as non-negotiables first and a storytelling choice second. I oppose that cultural settlement on principle.
Now regarding male gaze, I'm all for flat justice, and cannon-boobs aren't exactly my first preference. Nor do I need to see hot naked women to enjoy something. But I know why that is stigmatised. This is not some aesthetic evolution that emerged "neutrally". It is the product of constant feminist cultural policing of traditionally male spaces. And the same environment that treats the male gaze as something to be ashamed of and confined to privately consumed vices like porn, simultaneously celebrates male nudity and the female gaze in those same mainstream venues, see Thor Love and Thunder.
The messaging is that male desire is low-status and must be disavowed in public, female desire (and its equivalents) is high-status and may be displayed openly.
And you as a man should internalise this hierarchy and join the choir in calling out the "weirdos" who refuse to comply. You see this specimen of man everywhere, it's obvious as hell that he doesn't actually believe this, but performs it anyway purely for social approval. I've even seen it in games like Black Myth Wukong. The female characters are not at all sexualised in costume or behaviour. But the complaint still persists merely because females in the game were facially feminine and pretty. It's transparent from the language, "have you SEEN an ACTUAL woman?" Pure status signaling through and through.
Well I think that once a black person has been cast, there is a lot of pressure on the show runners, directors, producers, etc. to follow certain rules about how that black person must be portrayed. And if they follow those rules, it makes the wokeness of the content that much more prominent and obvious.
As I mentioned above, while I think that there is a taboo against this kind of fan service, it's nowhere near as strong as, for example, the taboo against portraying a black character as being unintelligent. For example, as mentioned above, in Landman there is plenty of male gaze type content.
Also as mentioned above, it seems to me there may be another factor in play, which is the easy availability of sexually stimulating material online.
Here's another example of what I mean: In the 1980s, there were a few very popular movies which featured a lot of female nudity. For example, Stripes. At the time, if you wanted to see a movie of naked women taking a shower together, going to see Stripes was the only practical way of doing so, apart from going to an extremely seedy movie theater or adult book store.
So it seems to me that there is less incentive for filmmakers to include this kind of content. Because there is not as much demand for it.
I agree, but I think that in the absence of internet porn (broadly defined), plenty of content creators (including big budget films and television shows) would make lots of male gaze type stuff. And even with the internet (and with feminism) there still is a decent amount.
But this is downstream of the first mandate though, the non-negotiable racial inclusion. LOTR is objectively not made any better by including blacks, no matter how stellar their performances purportedly are.
Okay, so the grievance hierarchy places black representation above male gaze and penalises it harder. So what? Exceptions like Landman may exist (I haven't seen it, so I'll take your word for it) but the direction of the pressure is still the same. Do you think Stripes would be made today?
Sure, access to online porn may reduce the pure commercial incentive to include softcore fanservice, but it does not explain the active moralisation of female sex appeal. If this were merely demand adjusting to free alternatives, we would expect quiet reduction. What we actually get is reduction plus public scolding. Attractive female characters are not simply less common, they are frequently treated as ideologically suspect. And there's a corresponding rise in male nudity even in male media, like Thor. What is the commercial incentive here?
But this shift is especially obvious in video games. Female character designs are frequently unrealistically ugly and androgynous, look at Abby in TLOU2 vs the live action TV show. Ironic, the graphics get prettier while female models get uglier. And the stated reasons are explicitly "diversity" and "subverting the male gaze". That is not the market spontaneously deciding that gamers (majority straight male) no longer like looking at pretty women. It is a cultural and professional status hierarchy asserting itself inside studios, marketing departments, and critical institutions, independent of any commercial incentives.
That is why I brought up Black Myth Wukong. There's literally zero wank material there, but the complaints still arrived because the female designs were conventionally feminine and attractive, despite being non-sexual. Not as loud as Stellar Blade, but they were still there.
For the most part, I agree. But here's an example of what I mean: The Northman (which came out in 2022) did not have any blacks as best I can recall. There wasn't really a freakout about it. (Although it didn't receive any Oscar nominations -- possibly if the director had shoehorned in a black character, it would have done better.) Similarly, Ford versus Ferrari had basically no black characters but received a few Oscar nominations.
By contrast, imagine what would have happened if these movies had included black characters but presented them as unintelligent, or incompetent, or lazy, or otherwise contemptible.
The point is that failing to include blacks is a misdemeanor; including blacks but portraying them in a way which is politically incorrect is a felony.
So nothing. You brought up the issue of casting of blacks, I think it was interesting enough to respond to but that's about it.
Not directly, anyway. Here's a thought experiment:
Suppose that the Internet didn't exist so there was no way to conveniently access pornography. Would movie directors include more fan service knowing that it would improve their bottom line, notwithstanding the complaints of feminists? And if so, how would feminists react?
Here's an analogy: As you know, during the American Civil War, for the most part the northern states were against slavery and the southern states were in favor. Was this because liberalism was more prevalent in the north (just like it's still more prevalent today) or because the northern economy was far less dependent on slavery than that of the south? One can certainly argue that both were factors. And that economic considerations have a lot of influence (but not necessarily decisive influence) over peoples' views of morality.
Very little, I would guess. In fact, a lot of female viewers would prefer to look at female bodies over male bodies. Just look at the covers of women's magazines. I would guess that a bigger factor in that kind of male nudity is just woke flag-planting, as opposed to appealing to the female gaze, so to speak.
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I mean you have a point. But maybe my point was too narrow, too. I like seeing sexy women in sexy clothes in situations that don't involve them just banging. Actually, when I really feel bored with porn, anime porn is a good substitute, because the characters seem less like they're doing it for a paycheck, in part because they're not real, but also there's story involved. My definition of "normal" porn may be too narrow, but it basically always involves no story. But maybe my experience is not universal.
I can't really speak to that because I don't get it. Is there a parasocial effect where the intended audience are commenters that feel like they have a relationship with these girls posting the pictures? Like a cam girl?
To some extent, inasmuch as they love to police anything that men like. I wouldn't really say taboo, at least not in 2026. Maybe in 2017 it was.
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