site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   33751 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 27, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

If we just legalized most drugs and educated people on them, these gangs would lose significant power. It boggles the mind how much suffering is created, both in the U.S. and outside of it, by our ridiculously over strict laws on substances.

The primary income of Salvadoran gangs isn't drug trade, it's territory based extortion rackets and robberies. "Just legalize it, maaan" is irrelevant.

If we just legalized most drugs and educated people on them, these gangs would lose significant power.

No they wouldn't. Illegal, cartel-run marijuana farms in CA are displacing many legal businesses because they don't have to deal with the onerous regulatory apparatus either on the production or retail ends.

I don’t think this is true- the cartels might be ever so slightly more civilized than MS-13(which, remember, was founded in LA, not San Salvador), but that just makes them better at seeking non-drug sources of revenue, like, say, overthrowing the Mexican government in part of the country and replacing its extractive functions until the US has to ban imports of Mexican avocados. Or stepping up their human trafficking operations and flooding the border with migrants.

What's your evidence that "education" works on the median American, much less vulnerable demographics? Our current drug laws came about because of public demand. The public demand was generated by a legitimate crisis of addiction and all the social ills that came with it.

Let's assume for the sake of the argument that legalizing drugs will put a dent in the cartels funding to an extent that they cease being as much of a menace as they currently are.

Unless you care only for America's well-being and America's well-being only, it still seems like a net good given the social ills. As of right now, Latin Americans are paying a huge (often in blood) price to skim off some of the profits from the American drug market.

I'm not as sure about this, legalizing probably means taxing and regulating which means the unregulated untaxxed product may be able to compete on cost while still providing more than enough income to support cartels and gangs. Further, we're already seeing cartel activity in completely legal products (like Mexican Avocados). Suggesting that cartels might not all dry up if they lost their primary revenue source.

Who says you have to neutralize the cartels entirely? Just neutralizing them enough that they can't shoot down military helicopters seems like a good place to start. Most of their revenue comes from drugs so any dent in that is a good step forward.

I'm not as sure about this, legalizing probably means taxing and regulating which means the unregulated untaxxed product may be able to compete on cost while still providing more than enough income to support cartels and gangs.

I know this is a foreign concept to most governments, but it is possible for them to regulate lightly enough and take a small enough cut that it isn't economical for those opposed to their power to compete with them.

I wouldn't think so, because the cartel still has the advantage of pre-existing and trustworthy production, distribution, and retail networks. Everyone else is going to be trying to start from zero. And if the cartel doesn't like the competition, it already has access to people willing to do violence on its behalf, and an institutional culture where such violence was routine and approved of. Legalization is not a panacea.

Maybe we could just educate people not to commit crimes, police forces would lose significant power then.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats