This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
A bit meta - but why is nobody here talking about - congressional hearings about twitter files, new January 6th footage - those look like a prime culture war fodder. And yet it is suspiciously silent here? Personally my reason is that I can't just wrap my head around what is going on really.
I’ll share something about the J6 footage. The video shows that the “shaman” Jacob Chansly was a non-violent protestor on good terms with the police whom guided him through the corridors of the capitol. He is on video praying for the police and telling everyone to leave peacefully after reading Trump’s tweet. Also persuasive is the fact that only 106 officers were injured, whereas 180+ officers were injured when the progressive insurrectionists in 2020 attempted to seize the White House (burning down a piece of history in the process, a church of God). Remember that the media then laughed because Trump was placed in a safe location.
This only interests me a little though. What’s more interesting and scary is talking to an older relative who refuses to even watch the tape. Why? Because the news pushed stories to his iPhone immediately after Tucker’s monologue (which has 4mil views only on YouTube plus everyone who watches JRE plus etc). The News pushed debunks, or perhaps prebunks, in an attempt to inoculate their
subjectsviewers from ever being persuaded by Tucker’s video. None of it had anything that even vaguely amounts to a debunking. If Chansley was indeed violent, it should be as trivial as publishing the clip. The shaman didn’t exactly blend in with the crowd. But in fact, they can’t debunk it, so they just attack Tucker with persuasive linguistic programming.I also noticed how insanely uninformed my relative was on what happened in the Greater Insurrection of 2020. His entire memory of the event is “Trump dispersed peaceful protestors for a photo op”. The media is so crafty and so consistent in their messaging, it leads to such resilient disinformation. What, the President shouldn’t be able to speak a few miles from his house, about the piece of history insurrectionist burned down? That’s clearly insane.
Violence is not an element of the crime Chansley pleaded guilty to, obstruction of an official proceeding. So it is irrelevant whether he was violent.
In other words, for an extremely broad offense that was created to use against people interfering with trials and has never been used against protesters before, despite it being common for protesters to disrupt congress or other government proceedings.
https://archive.ph/XeEi2
That is incorrect. 18 U.S. Code § 1515 says:
So, it does not apply only to disruption of trials.
Even if that is true (and see below), the problem with that is that under the textualist method of interpreting legislation, legislative history and Congressional intent are largely irrelevant, if the words of a statute are clear:
Food Marketing Institute v. Argus Leader Media, 139 S. Ct. 2356, 2364 (2019) [Opn by Gorsuch, joined by Roberts, Thomas, Kavanaugh, Alito and Kagan].
And see the LONG discussion of the application of Section 1512(c)(2) to Jan 6 here. Why is the court wrong?
That is what I said. It is an extremely broad law that was originally created with the ostensible purpose of stopping stuff like destruction of evidence or intimidation of witnesses, and was previously only applied in that way, but that going by the text can be used to apply severe criminal charges to broad categories of protest activities. Now, if it was applied equally I might be at least somewhat sympathetic to the idea of cracking down on protest in general and pushing all political questions to be settled in the voting booth. But what makes it worse is that it is clearly being applied selectively based on the viewpoint of the protesters, a novel application of a law created because those charging them find the political cause of "Pence shouldn't certify the election results due to supposed evidence of fraud" particularly objectionable.
Your own link admits how absurdly broad the text is:
So how exactly do they distinguish between political activity prohibited by the text of the law that "nobody would seriously contend" actually violates it, and political activity prohibited by the text of the law that gets you years in prison? Well, they think this protest was bad:
Notice how, for instance, other protesters committing violence renders it "no mere political protest" and serves as justification for applying the law to nonviolent protesters like Chansley. That's sure not the standard that was applied to BLM protesters, including the ones who disrupted "official proceedings" by doing stuff like repeatedly setting that Portland courthouse on fire. But of course the primary determination of how the apply such a broad law isn't even with the court deciding which protests they like and which they don't, it's with those deciding to charge people with it in the first place. Code Pink loved to "obstruct, influence, or impede" Congress, but obviously nobody ever charged them under this law. In fact after writing that sentence I searched and here's an article from 2 weeks ago:
Code Pink protesters disrupt inaugural House China committee hearing
The capability of motivated reasoning to come up with reasons why such an overbroad law should apply to your political enemies is more than sufficient. The law should either not exist or at least not be interpreted as applying to cases anything close to this.
I took your claim to be that the law did not apply to the Jan 6 events. But if your claim is instead that it is overbroad, that is a different question. Maybe it is. But note that other courts, in completely different contexts, have rejected that precise argument re this precise law. To quote the case I linked:
The Court then observed that the indictment alleged acts intended to disrupt the proceeding, not mere speech.
Moreover:
United States v. Williams, 553 US 285, 293 (2008).
Also, "[f]acial overbreadth has not been invoked when a limiting construction has been or could be placed on the challenged statute," Broadrick v. Oklahoma, 413 U.S. 601, 613 (1973). Construing the law to not apply to speech, even loud disruptive speech such as the Code Pink one, goes a long way toward addressing potential overbreadth issues.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link