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I think it’s a pretty strong argument for not getting involved in these kinds of wars unless they actually have some strategic importance to us in America. Neither of these wars are of particular importance to America. If Ukraine falls, it’s not going to change anything in the USA or Europe. Iran again was not really a danger to us, and had we done nothing, we’d have lower gas prices on top of not paying for the war.
...other than establishing a precedent that countries can forcibly take land from their neighbours....
More like establishing a precedent that Russia can extend its influence to European countries with military force. That's a big fucking change for Europe.
Yes. Russia. That huge expansionist imperial power, with the US and NATO, nations and entities halfway around the world, who are involved in someone else’s backyard. Makes total sense.
Yes, that huge expansionist power that has for years engaged in hybrid warfare against various European countries and keeps constantly publicly threatening them.
Sounds like we’re talking about the US.
What on earth does that have to do with Russian militaristic aggression?
Because that’s what your rant most accurately describes. The US is the one all the way over there. Russia isn’t meddling around in Canada.
Why would I give a fuck about Canada?
I know many people on Motte are completely incapable of understanding the world isn't composed of NPCs but some of us actually happen to live in those countries that Russia has been actively threatening and sabotaging for years.
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You realize the entirety of human history has already established that precedent, right?
Up till 1945, yes. We (by which I mean the UK, USA and USSR) unestablished it in pretty spectacular style in Normandy, Kursk, Hiroshima etc.
Though light on imperial annexations, there were plenty of mindless wars of agression after 1945.
Also remember that at the start of the war Stalin made a deal with hitler to take half of Poland. It's kind of fair to also say that ww2 was also a war of sovet aggression.
Not all parties involved share equal weight for their involvement in wars. Some parties are instigators, others get dragged into it. War itself is the business of martyrs, not saints. Plus, the “Soviet Union” doesn’t exist anymore; so maybe it’s of some historical value, but it carries little when it comes to the moral gravity of what is going on in the Russia-Ukraine conflict today. That has to do with developments in the postwar period.
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The entirety of human history also established the precedent that shipping is only as good as a flag nation's own ability to protect and escort the ships, but outside of the Hormuz, it's important to everyone that we don't return to that state of history.
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I think it's pretty reasonable to infer that the 'can' means 'can legitimately, with recognition from other states'. Turkey was definitely able to take a chunk of Cyprus and kick out all the Greeks, but even though it happened more than 50 years ago, no other state recognises it as legitimate and the 'country' can only survive with subsidies from Turkey.
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Not to mention geographic boundaries haven’t existed in their respective, present day conditions forever.
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And even if, I fail to see why this is something that we need to spend trillions on. We cannot and should not be spending our blood and treasure on things that don’t matter to us. Ukraine isn’t a territory that’s militarily or economically important. It was basically Nebraska— farmland. No strategic minerals, no important industries, no oil. It doesn’t matter at all whether or not that farmland is ruled from Moscow or Kiev.
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Which is why everyone with a Ukrainian flag in their profile is also calling for war against Azerbaijan.
The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict (including the Azeri invasion, conquest, and ethnic cleansing of the "Republic of Artsakh" in 2023) was fought within the internationally recognised territory of Azerbijan. They may have committed genocide (I don't give a shit, because the victims were Russian stooges and I have friends in Salisbury) but they didn't commit aggression under international law.
Maybe it's not actually international borders or human rights that motivates this type of attitude, but the desire to have a hated outgroup which one can harm without penalty or even with a sense of righteous justice.
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