This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
How, precisely, can a woman mitigate the risk of any given man impregnating her leading to maternal morbidity and ruining her pelvis, her figure, her mind, serious internal health complications, death in the worst case?
Is it just possible that the rewards on offer aren't really enticing given the 'risk' required to get them?
You're asking them to be extremely tolerant of navigating the most dangerous thing a woman can do in modern society. But if the reward isn't worthwhile, why would a 'desirable' woman do so? What's the motivation/incentive? If its 'sex' then... she can just get hook-ups on Tinder. Much more manageable risk profile, less risk required.
If its "companionship" she can get that from girls, or a cat.
If its "romance, marriage, resources" men are not providing those as much as in the past, objectively.
What's left?
--
I'm sympathetic to the idea that relationships are becoming a worse deal for both men and women, but overly obsessing over the dangers of either MeToo or pregnancy just codes as neurosis.
It seems to me that this is just a consequence of people being much richer and hence opportunity costs being much higher than in the past; the bar for a relationship to improve your life and for risk-taking behavior to secure a mate to be worth it is much lower if you don't have much optionality in career, entertainment or prospects in life, as compared to modern society when everyone has the optionality of a career, hobbies, infinite entertainment to be concerned with.
I never understood the concept of pregnancy 'ruining' a woman's body.
God literally made the woman's body for pregnancy.
This is like a man saying he should not work because he would risk ruining his body.
From ruining his back from trades work to carpal tunnel syndrome or obesity from desk jobs.
I suppose the solution would be to remove all the reproductive organs and take some hormonal supplements. No more periods or anything else. No risk.
God literally designed much of childbearing's effects (as well as the sweat of the man's brow when he toils and the fact that both men and women wither and die) as a punishment. It is not a positively colored feature.
When the devs refuse to patch blatant bugs, modders will step in, e.g. Skyrim.
But of course I don't actually believe that, I just humored you. Evolution literally designed the woman's body. Evolution is a retarded vibecoder that doesn't have "make no mistakes, revise your work" in the prompt. If it works, it works. Once it stops working, then it will either get fixed, slowly, based on whichever iterations work the best, or the whole project gets canceled.
Christianity puts a great deal of emphasis on suffering, punishment, sacrifice as a mean to better oneself.
It's a pretty common observation that living like zoo animals who don't have to perform work to get fed is not an ideal existence. It might not be true in all cases, it's hard to tell.
Perhaps the people who grow up with very privileged backgrounds do have overall better average life-satisfaction or make better moral decisions, I don't have the data.
Evolution so far does not seem to favor running away from a female body's natural purpose, but who knows, the future may be brewing in axlotl tanks.
You said you don't understand "the concept of a pregnancy ruining the woman's body". How complicated is it? Empirically we see that the body is worse off, like a man's body is worse off after (literally) backbreaking work.
"God designed it for that purpose" doesn't demonstrate that it's not ruining, not all purposes engineered by God are meant to be good for the body. As you seem to agree w.r.t. Christian sacrifice and self-mortifying.
Perhaps you think that women should be glad to ruin their bodies with pregnancies, or men with labor, because it's overall a good thing, then say so instead of feigning ignorance about "what ever does ruining mean".
That's like saying using a knife to cut is ruining it because the blade dulls with use.
Would it be better not to use the knife then?
Theoretically, driving your car 'ruins' it because it adds mileage and uses the parts and causes depreciation.
So you should keep the car in a garage at all times?
My point is that pregnancy is the natural state of a woman, just as labor is the natural state of a man.
What would you need the man's body for if not to perform some type of labor?
Thank goodness this man's body has never performed any type of labor before, it is perfectly preserved at the ripe age of 80 to go and dig a trench.
The purposes of tools are what people use them for. Theoretically, if I needed my car for other things than driving, I wouldn't want to destroy it, especially if I do not really need to actually drive anywhere.
If there was someone else who wanted to use my body for some purpose of theirs, I regret to say I didn't ask.
I don't live in theory.
Nobody ever says 'No don't drive your car, you're ruining it!', that's preposterous.
If you have a man's body and you're using it for labor, you are not ruining it. If you are not using it for labor, you are wasting it.
If you have a woman's body and you're using it to bear children, you are not ruining it. If you are not using it to bear children, you are wasting it.
Again, I didn't ask you, or anyone, what to use my knife for, and neither so for the body. Non-theoretically, people do all manner of things with their tools, such as collecting nice cars (or knives) to set them up in a viewing stand, or using them in specific occasions that do not match up to your imagined, monadically perfect telos. So it is with bodies.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link