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Notes -
The Closure of the Internet
I recently started reading Arctotherium’s almost encyclopedic article titled The Closure of the Internet documenting the change starting in the mid-2010s from the internet being a free-speech zone to its current state as a censored environment. I only started reading the article since it is so truly extensive in its documentation, and then I skimmed through and read the highlights of the main article and some of the footnotes.
I was having 2 conflicting reactions: (1) this is not news – as anyone here who remembers the departure of this forum from Reddit or slatestarcodex can attest and (2) this is likely “the most important social phenomenon of the late 2010s” (Arctotherium's words) since it changed the dynamic so completely of the place where most people spend most of their free time and I, and most others, have never thought of it that way. In fact, many young people aren't even aware that it happened.
Why is it both not news and unknown? I think the article contains the answer to this question, without seeming to understand its importance - it doesn't have a name:
So I propose that we all start calling it the name Arctotherium used: the closure of the internet.
As a second note, I want to push back on the “Did it Work?” section in the article, which argues that the closure of the internet did not work since it failed at its goal of preserving confidence in traditional institutions. The section is true, as far it goes, but it leaves out that the closure of the internet was effective (at least in my view) on its object-level issues. I would argue there is more immigration and there was more compliance during COVID than there would be if discussion of these issues had remained open, but after spending their political capital on, for example, COVID, they have lost the public trust they need to fight, for example, measles.
Cause this is a problem for online people, not for the "touch grass" offline crowd.
In the real world, there also aren't many free-speech zones for people to truly unleash their most radical, dark, unsavory thoughts. The real reason free speech flourished in the internet is because of anonymity. If people can speak their mind anonymously in real life, you'll hear them much more often too. In the real world, unless you're crazy and just speaking to no one, you're speaking to an audience, and therefore, they know you. They can judge you, they can laugh at you, they can raise their eyebrows or makes visible that they think you're disgusting, they can think twice about doing business with you, and on and on and on.
I would like to add a second point about the internet is that people who champion it being a "free speech zone" is because not only of the anonymity, which protects them from retaliation, but also reach. If you're the guy shunned by the local community, it's unlikely that they would repeat or share your words with others. Yeah you still got free speech, alright, your speech just isn't landing. On the internet, be dark and edgy and you can go viral, and of course "a lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes".
The things being censored were normal or mainstream opinions. Opposition to gay marriage, disgust with fat people, support for Donald Trump, even opposition to immigration could get posters deplatformed. The pandemic was censored! If you believed the pandemic came from the Wuhan coronovirus research laboratory and not Chinese people eating bats, you could be banned. If you didn't want to take a novel mRNA vaccine, you could be banned. There were government agencies on tax dollars paying employees to scour social media and report "misinformation" to twitter HQ.
The website you are posting on right now exists because of threats that the conversations that we have here were too "dangerous" for reddit to continue to host them.
This is a problem if you want to pursue truth and not status.
Yeah, from a private website, it's like being banned from a restaurant. And look, a rich man bought out a big square (Twitter/X), and Trump got his own (Truth Social). To me, this feels more like complaining about the consequences. You can be a moon landing denier but don't be surprised if you get punched in the face by an astronaut. Also, specifically about the wuhan coronavirus lab leak theory, I always get annoyed because Jon Stewart went on Colbert and literally just talk about it. I'm here to say that I don't think the stuff with the internet is markedly different if the example is not-internet. Even the case with payment processing, look, if you're a business owner that has only one supplier with monopoly power, and you piss them off because of your political views, well, yeah, good luck with that.
Yeah, i agree that if the government is doing the pressure then it's not good (because it's unconstitutional), but if pressed, I don't think I'm a freedom of speech absolutist in daily life. I personally think that just like how all the Biden pressure campaign stuff came out once Trump is in office, then all the Trump pressure campaign stuff will come out once Trump isn't in office. Though I do think Trump and his admin is more likely to just demand the results directly instead of doing things opaquely like Biden. I think if someone comes from the position of defending free speech, they'll find problems with every administration. And thankfully, America has a vibrant market and populace that is always vigilant on these things (Musk buying Twitter/X, Trump launching Truth Social, this site splitting off from Reddit, I'm hearing about Gab/Parler, watchpeopledie has their own site).
To me, this is equivalent to if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?.
Ok, so are you in favor of internet censorship? What kinds of opinions should be censored? Do you think TheMotte should censor more?
Punching a guy in the face because you don't like his truth claim is assault and it's bad for your argument that you compare your own position to assault.
This was after years of censorship on the subject that Jon Stewart's remarks were literally couched against. People were censored for having a normal opinion, so he felt it important to speak that opinion in a public forum.
It doesn't sound like you believe in free speech. It doesn't sound like you have any higher ideals or higher standards. You should want better for yourself.
This went all the way to SCOTUS actually and the Roberts Court said it was perfectly constitutional for government officials to tell twitter to ban stuff because that's the government's first amendment right. If you think it's unconstitutional then you actually agree with me.
Look, I think it's good if you support free speech policies, but these websites were all created in the first place because of censorship of which it seems you approve. Elon would not have had to buy twitter and make it a free speech website if it had just stayed the free speech website it was originally. And, as much as I'm glad Elon bought twitter, anybody can see that his regime is not as free as twitter was c. 2016 in the first place.
What I'm saying, in general, to try and consolidate several different points, is that you personally benefit from free speech norms that are only possible because of opposition to anti-free speech norms you seem to support. We're posting on a website that only exists because of a wave of censorship that swept the internet c. 2017. It exists because Reddit did not want to tolerate these kinds of political debates. When it had always openly and explicitly tolerated these political debates. That change was a specific cultural moment that many people, including those here, opposed. That change made the world worse. That change largely failed. And to the extent that it did fail it's because of a lot of work from a lot of people who tried to stop it.
Private internet censorship is like banning people from a restaurant? Ok, I want a world where most people are not banned from most restaurants most of the time. That's actually basically the norm, but there were a lot of people who tried very hard to make sure it wasn't the norm. If the censors had had their way, ~50%+ of the American public would not be allowed into any restaurant, anywhere, and if you tried to open your own restaurant to serve most Americans, the censors would want you banned too.
I suppose the nuance of what I'm saying isn't that I'm against free speech online. I just recognize that because online is an extension of real life, the same things that make real life hard for truly free crazy speech (lack of anonymity, lack of reach if others don't help you spread it) will be imposed on the online environment at some point, that's why it's an online people problem. I was primarily answering "Why is it both not news and unknown?"
I am in favor of applying laws fairly, digital space is different from meat space, but there are overlaps and equivalents. If there should be differences, it should be made clear. TheMotte has the mods and people can pre-filter that opinions by voting on comments/report them. I personally think it's fine, I haven't seen any mod action that I disagree with or thinks that it makes the discussion worse.
Ok, fine, I'll extend the analogy. You can be a moon landing denier but don't be surprised if you get punched in the face by an astronaut. And yes, the astronaut should expect that the punchee will seek assault charges. If we look at the detail of the incident btw, charges were never filed.
Jun 15, 2021, that was still in the midst of Covid, not even 2 years.
Yeah, I already said "I don't think I'm a freedom of speech absolutist in daily life". Like many things, I do think there is a gradation of how much free speech do we expect for certain things. Maybe the higher standard here is what is good and what is necessary. In the US, it's norms and culture first, law next, then constitution last. I suppose since I live here, I like to believe the higher idea is the constitution, and it only protects my speech from the government, not protection of speech from private actions.
I believe this should be Murthy v. Missouri (June 2024) and I suppose your summary is correct but uhh no it was struck down because of standing. as at least one person points out: "A reminder that kicking the case on standing should not be regarded as an opinion on the merits of the case. Should only be regarded as an opinion that they do not have standing to sue."
And yes, there is a reason why I am sympathetic to the tech-right, I think that there is some level of subterfuge here so that the Biden government can hide behind and have plausible deniability on first amendment rights. I don't think you're wrong to point that out. It's just that what I say is: "Though I do think Trump and his admin is more likely to just demand the results directly instead of doing things opaquely like Biden. I think if someone comes from the position of defending free speech, they'll find problems with every administration." It's just very natural for people in position of power to want to shut down the speech of others that criticize them.
Ok, and I never use twitter (certainly because of the lack of nuanced discussion), and I go to this site. People go to places that serve them and their needs. And the owners of the site can do whatever they wish, that's just how businesses work. Forcing a business to serve any political view is itself forcing a political view on them.
I already wrote elsewhere so I'll put it here again:
I can benefit from the work of others, that's just natural of daily life. Of course I thank you all for it, and yeah, I'm here after all. Yet it's just as much that I think the censor work is futile. I'll do things to get around the censor just as much as you, especially when I think my speech might somehow lead to me back in real life and lead to some kind of unwanted attention/retaliation. But I suppose what I want to really get is that online can be thought of as different, but just an extension of real life. In real life, also feel free to write political screeds and nail them anonymously to electrical poles (though Flock cameras is probably gonna get around that). If the truth one speak is important, it will come out in the long term. Of course in the short term, you might be persecuted.
Yeah, and the censors sometime succeed. People couldn't drink alcohol for a while. People couldn't make movies where the bad guy wins or show some nudity. But thankfully there are always reactions against tyrannic actions, and the American people has a way to express their dissatisfaction. The tech people turns right because Biden made it hard (I would argue more because of money but the speech thing must be infuriating). Hispanics will turn on Trump because Trump made it hard (I would argue more because of money but the immigration thing must be infuriating). And so the pendulum swings. And I disagree that the internet will be closed, as long as there is anonymity and shared discussion space, the internet will always be open.
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What do you think about restaurants banning people for skin color? Do you think it should be legal?
a quick search (and also IANAL) shows me that the reason why it is illegal for restaurants to ban people based on skin color because of the following:
And like many before, it's pointed out that you can discriminate based on political speech, YMMV lol.
Personally, I think it is immoral to ban people based on their skin color. I think for the good of a multi-racial society (because that's what the US is whether one likes it or not), that should not be a thing because it just leads to segregation/disintegration and would in the long term lead to a fractured and balkanized US. Now I have reservations about upgrading from legal to constitutional, maybe race won't be a concern in the far future and "race" might mean something different and the law needs an upgrade (or maybe not, supreme court justices have been reasonably intelligent so far). So yeah, I think it's good that restaurants cannot ban people for their skin color.
What I want to know is why your principles for banning black people from restaurants differ from your principles for banning people from "private websites".
depends on the context. Banning people for political speech on website is fine, because you can also ban people from your restaurant for political speech.
That doesn't answer the question. Why are the principles different between banning blacks from your restaurant and banning people for political speech from websites? I'm asking you to explain the difference. Pointing out that they can be the same doesn't explain the difference.
As far as I can tell, your argument for banning people from private websites is "it's private, so they should be able to ban whoever they want". As a principle, that implies that since the restaurant is private, the restaurant should be able to ban whoever they want too. Why don't you agree with what seem to be the implications of your principle?
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