site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 27, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Why should I need to label how my money (or my businesses' money) is spent for the administrative state?

Because you want the tax benefits that flow from labeling it a certain way?

Like, if you want to pay taxes on all the revenue your company earns or all your personal income or whatever then you don't have to care about how your money is labelled. But the reason people label things as business expenses is because the government gives certain kinds of tax advantage for those expenditures. The government is, I think understandably, upset when people lie to them and claim expenditures were for things that give tax benefits when they actually were not.

Courts will have to focus on spirit of the law. Where people that don't violate a single law might still get prosecuted, because they so obviously violated the spirit. Or where people that broke a million tiny elements of the law get off completely free, because they weren't doing anything that actually violated the purpose of the laws.

I don't understand how you can possibly think a legal system that operated this way would be perceived as more just than the current system. "We're going to throw you in jail, not because you broke any law but because fuck you." "Yea, you broke a bunch of laws other people are in jail for, but we aren't gonna punish you because we like you." Very just!

"Yea, you broke a bunch of laws other people are in jail for, but we aren't gonna punish you because we like you."

This one is real. Selective prosecution is just a thing.

"We're going to throw you in jail, not because you broke any law but because fuck you." "Yea, you broke a bunch of laws other people are in jail for, but we aren't gonna punish you because we like you." Very just!

Are there not countries around the world that work somewhat like this, where the de facto law is much more informal than it would seem? I think there's some value in having a "Rule Zero"/"Because I Said So" clause in law, where a situation is sufficiently outside a system's reference class and it also demands swift and decisive action.

I am not sure there is any entity I (or people more generally) would (or ought) trust with that power, for what I think are pretty good reasons.

Like, if you want to pay taxes on all the revenue your company earns or all your personal income or whatever then you don't have to care about how your money is labelled. But the reason people label things as business expenses is because the government gives certain kinds of tax advantage for those expenditures. The government is, I think understandably, upset when people lie to them and claim expenditures were for things that give tax benefits when they actually were not.

Administrative state crap. I'd prefer it if they stop creating thousands of different laws that reward different micro categories of spending with tiny tax incentives. I don't doubt that whatever silly rule is violated has some reason for existing within the bureaucracy. I just don't care about the system in general. Burn it all down I say.


I don't understand how you can possibly think a legal system that operated this way would be perceived as more just than the current system. "We're going to throw you in jail, not because you broke any law but because fuck you." "Yea, you broke a bunch of laws other people are in jail for, but we aren't gonna punish you because we like you." Very just!

Because a sufficiently complex set of rules just eventually wraps back around to that outcome anyways. When everyone is violating the rules and the only thing that saves them is prosecutor discretion, then it's just some prosecutor deciding who they want to make guilty and innocent. Why not skip the step of having a super complex legal system that wastes a bunch of resources? And why not select the judges and prosecutors based entirely on their wisdom to make good judgements, rather than their ability to manipulate a stupidly complex legal system?

And why not select the judges and prosecutors based entirely on their wisdom to make good judgements, rather than their ability to manipulate a stupidly complex legal system?

How do you determine "wisdom to make good judgements" in advance? What if people disagree about what good judgements are?

That's why they are elected positions.