site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 10, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

14
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Keep in mind that as a mind upload, I can trivially fork and modify my consciousness, so sending a copy of myself out to explore the universe is no issue.

I can't say that would likely be a major priority for me, given the sheer travel time, and the fact that I can experience most of it in VR, but it's always an option.

Have you read Greg Egan's Diaspora? It explores this in depth.

Also, I feel like I would at least once want to be the actual consciousness exploring. Then again it would be horrifically risky compared to my cushy life on Mars I suppose. It's nice to dream.

No, that's not one of Egan's works that I've read!

Frankly speaking, I feel the sheer hassle of space exploration unless you're colonizing makes it not worth it. It would take decades to explore nearby stars, burn an enormous amount of resources, and for an experience I don't personally value that highly. Maybe send a copy on an already outbound flight, but that's about it as far as I'm really concerned. My curiosity about things is very much real, but I don't need to see it all in person!

If you think it's not worth it to explore, why would your fork do it?

Because I can arbitrarily modify it?

Not that I'd still bother, because I don't really want my forks doing anything I wouldn't do myself unless it couldn't be helped.

I’ve only read that from Egan, do you have other recommendations?

You're asking the wrong person in this case, but I did read half of Permutation City and did enjoy it before I got distracted haha. I'm under the impression that's his most famous work by far, but I haven't dabbled in any others.

If you were an immortal robot, why would you care? Fork of an instance and set it to activate at it's destination, then come back to merge with the hive. (not that I endorse any of this behaviour, but it seems inconsistent with your frame to worry that interstellar exploration would take too long!)

Interstellar travel is still difficult enough that that wouldn't be easy, but sure, I could do that if I really cared to.