site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   33358 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of April 17, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Anyways, I would be curious on others thoughts here (assuming anyone is willing to watch a nearly two hour video by someone most would consider an ideological opponent.

My 2 cents are - if she wants me to engage with her arguments, better start a substack or something. Or not put 'herself' in videos.

I've had her videos bludgeoned into my youtube feed, and .. there's something about elaborate theatrics and 'her' entire 'performance' that repulsed me. Watched maybe 4 minutes and then told youtube to give me a break.

My takeaway from this whole 'trans and gay' craze of the last decade is I'm very sympathetic to the way the old communists treated the topic.

They tolerated it, as in, the more thoughtful places did not jail them, but it was given absolutely zero media visibility.

And were they wrong? Anorexia and bulimia are (see SA's "Crazy Like Us") are self-inflicted problems.

I maintain that to a large degree, the trans issue is the same thing. Even if you look at google trends, ftm and trans are slowly replacing bulimia /anorexia in search interests.

As a society, we'd be better off if these concepts were taboo, unspeakable. Same as you don't tell kids "do not lick frozen metal" because of course they'll give it a try, you shouldn't tell kids "if you feel like you don't belong with your sex, maybe you are trans".

No, maybe you're just weird. Plenty of people are weird and don't find it easy to belong. Either get used to it, but trying to use the uncanny-valley to get somewhere where you belong never ends well.

The benefit to teenagers who'd avoid getting into deep trouble would outweight the discomfort of genuine cases.

I think you’re probably right about the approach, though with the internet being what it is, not getting official coverage doesn’t matter much because it’s trivial to find that content— along with everything else weird and kinky— with minimal effort. I don’t even want to know what “hypno-porn” is but I’m positive if I wanted to find out, a 14 year old would know.

not getting official coverage doesn’t matter much because it’s trivial to find that content

My personal belief is that there should be open source heuristic or NN pornographic filters built into every widely used OS, which disable viewing if there's a pattern of overuse.

No, maybe you're just weird. Plenty of people are weird and don't find it easy to belong. Either get used to it, but trying to use the uncanny-valley to get somewhere where you belong never ends well.

I am a fan of "weird," but society doesn't function well when "weird" becomes the establishment. We need institutions to be focused on the "normies" so the weird can continue to be weird on the colorful fringes of a society that functions.

deleted

I don’t know why women are interested in seeing men show off cosmetics, but nonetheless James Charles had a huge following among women before his cancellation.

There’s probably an interesting psychological explanation- anything from ‘it can even make a man look pretty and feminine’ to ‘women want to follow a man’s lead’.

My observations are reversed: most of the current-generation trans people I've met take on extremely feminine names and presentation, and give me a disquieting sense of being forced to participate in their fetish with no meaningful ability to refuse consent. Older transwomen I've known have given me the "I just want to quietly pass and get on with my life" vibe.

In my less charitable times I feel like there’s no difference, and the trans identification is just a part of the play-acting, a minstrel show of femininity, like a costume

That reminds me of a thread on the old Motte, which was about a trans man saying, "Hey, bros, step it up! I'm spending all this time dressing smartly and performing masculinity really hard, while you're not even thinking about it."

For him, being a man was a costume (get the products and clothing right to perform the role) whereas for normal men, it's just something that sort of happens. Even "Be a man" means "Be a man, not a boy" rather than "Be a man, not a woman."

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats