site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   32556 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 1, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

9
Top Bottom New Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

every other commentator, even putatively conservative ones, are doing the expected throat-clearing about how Neely’s death is a tragedy, that we all wish he “could have gotten the help he needed”, etc. If anyone believes, as I do, that the first step to saving our civilization is for tens of thousands of people to pull a Daniel Penny on their local subway-screaming bum, they’re sure not saying it out loud. The veil of self-censorship and paying homage to liberal pieties will persist no matter what happens to Daniel Penny, and nobody will get the public catharsis of hearing a powerful or important person say out loud that Jordan Neely’s death was a good thing and we need more of it.

Indeed, the graceful losing will continue as long as mainstream conservatives keep playing by the left’s playbook and agreeing to their terms.

There are only two tragedies here. One is that the hero’s getting his name dragged through the mud and facing social and legal harassment for taking out the trash. The second is that there are far too few subway vigilantes in the world, and far too many “Michael Jackson impersonators” terrorizing public spaces. The Subway Marine should be honored, just as Rooftop Koreans should be honored, and become a celebrity spokesman for the sandwich chain. SubwayTM: So much sandwich that you might choke.

An amusing thought that comes to mind: If, ex-ante, I were told there was a viral video of a military member grappling with an NYC subway hobo, I’d immediately guess Marine. Like, it’s much harder for me to picture an Airman, for example, doing something as based and gritty as this. Chad Marine vs. Virgin Airman. It takes a special kind of guy to be willing to grapple with a gross hobo or on an NYC subway floor (much less the two combined), such as the kind of guy who’s down to crawl around in shitty, muddy water while in gear. I’d have to take a chem-shower after hobo-jiu-jitsu on a subway floor, or get myself hosed down like the mother in 28 Weeks Later (possibly while sobbing like her, too).

I was sickened and humiliated not only by the actions of the schizophrenic loser who accosted me, and by my relative inability to effectively defend myself if the guy had started attacking me, but also by the inaction of the other grown men standing nearby. Without telling the whole story, I ended up in that position because I attempted to stop the lunatic from harassing a different guy, and then that guy stood around and watched the assailant menace me and did not intervene in any way.

That’s seriously brave of you, particularly since you’re a self-described smaller guy who’s never been in a “proper fistfight.” I’ve thankfully never had to confront or defend myself against such public transit creatures (Creatures of Public Transit?). Especially since, in recent years, I’ve made it a priority to live in areas with less vibrancy. As a (still) young athletic man with some familiarity in fist fights, I’m mashing RUN rather than FIGHT each time a WILD HOBO appears. Too bad there is no irl REPEL for low-lifes that I can keep in my ITEM stash.

Defending yourself against people with much less to lose than you is really a lose-lose situation, especially given Who? Whom? considerations. It’s not like wild hobos fight fair under unwritten gentlemen’s mutual combat agreements. A self-defense situation with a crazed hobo could get you killed. Or perhaps worse, it doesn’t.

If I stand my ground against a hobo and lose, I just got my ass kicked or killed by a hobo who then just returns to his life of doing low-life things. Great. I might be stabbed, seriously injured, or dead. Who knows what a deranged person might do to you after you’re incapacitated. Onlookers don’t help due to fear of personal injury or fear of being accused of bigotry in one way or another.

If I win the fight, I get the full-force of anarcho-tyranny coming down upon my head. I’d get hunted down and socially and legally prosecuted, my name smeared while the hobo has hagiographies coming out about how he is/was a gentle soul who loves/loved putting smiles on people’s faces, and was just having some mental struggles after his mom died until some bigot lynched him in a subway (an experience akin to a certain Marine might have recently had). If a shadow-realming occurs, my devices would probably be seized, where it’d possibly emerge that apparently I’m an extremist who somehow masqueraded for years as a typical member of the PMC while sometimes commenting in a hive of scum and villainy filled with racists, misogynists, White Nationalists, Russian misinformants, etc., which would only serve as further proof to my supposed guilt.

I have fantasized about doing exactly what Daniel Penny - the NYC subway hero - did. Except for in my fantasies, I didn’t unintentionally end the man’s life due to a tragic and unforeseen accident; I just kicked the absolute shit out of him, taking him by surprise and beating him within an inch of his life, or stabbing him before he could get a hand in me.

Maybe my fantasies are more boring, but when I was living in a more… vibrant… area, my fantasy was that one day I’d move to a place where I wouldn't have to deal with the Neelys of the world as much. And now, my “fantasy” is that perhaps Anglosphere/European countries will just enforce their laws, and stop letting in and stop subsidizing people, inside or outside their countries, who will only increase the Neelyness of their country and/or the planet.

Too bad there is no irl REPEL for low-lifes that I can keep in my ITEM stash.

This literally exists, it's called pepper spray. Unless it's illegal where you live.

Regardless of its local legality, a key difference between pepper stray and the fictional REPEL (and REPEL's upgraded forms) is that pepper stray is something you pull-out in the moment—if you have time to do so—while a WILD HOBO or whatever attacks you. Whereas REPEL prevents WILD HOBO attacks altogether in the first place (at least from those lower in level than you).

I guess I got nothing for you, then, other than smearing yourself with concentrated essence of durian.

There is some precedence in the zombie genre of something like that working, caking yourself with mud/shit/[stinky substance] to sneak by zombies.

And hobos are basically irl zombies, dangerous single-minded animated corpses in varying stages of rot and decay. There are slow and fast kinds, and they can be inhumanly strong and determined for they lack normal human restraint and self-preservation. If an encounter unfortunately arises, sometimes they’ll leave you alone if you don’t make any noises or sudden movements, but other times you might just be SOL and have to defend yourself. It’s over if you get bitten by one. A hobo bite would cause massive poison damage on top of physical.

This is not a productive or helpful way to contribute to the discussion.

That just makes you smell like the bums, it likely won't repel them.

Whereas REPEL prevents WILD HOBO attacks altogether in the first place (at least from those lower in level than you).

That's called BEING RICH which comes with the LIVING IN A NICE NEIGHBORHOOD buff. But that's sadly a P2W item.

SMH, all of Life seems to be one big P2W scheme...

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats