This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
A 30-year-old pregnant nurse attempted to steal a GPS-tracked rental bike from a young black man right outside her workplace, and when a group of onlookers surrounded her and started filming she had the audacity to start acting strangely, call for help, and briefly cry. Don't worry, justice has been served: she has been identified and suspended, and she will never be okay again.
It comes off quite a bit differently knowing that she's six months pregnant, just got off her 12-hour shift, and that the theft was on the part of the guy harassing her. What's she supposed to feel like? She would probably be better served by stating the claim plainly rather than becoming emotional, but if I had just worked a long shift, had some scumbag trying to steal a bike from me, and some other guy recording the incident for fun and profit, I might lose my capacity for calm indifference to the situation.
the endless shoving of emmett till in our faces means that a white woman crying or attempting to get help when being accosted by black men is equivalent to attempted murder.
More options
Context Copy link
Yeah, there's a particularly nasty tendency recently for these videos that kick off rage mobs to involve people who are literally just trying to live their lives and suddenly they find themselves in a forced dilemma with a camera shoved in their face with no warning or prep.
For instance, some guy on the NY subway who is just trying to get to a destination unscathed.
At least in the situations with, e.g. Kyle Rittenhouse or George Zimmerman (remember him? over ten years ago!) they were arguably inserting themselves into situations where a conflict and confrontation were likely, so there's a certain amount of risk assumption there.
But this trend of depicting ordinary people, probably dealing with various other stressors, just trying to go about their normal days and not intentionally interfering with others, forced into a standoff where they either back down and allow themselves to be trod upon, or they stand their ground and get mobbed by an uncaring internet posse for their 'racism'... it is antisocial in the extreme, if you ask me.
And there's no obvious way to restrict it other than, perhaps make it broadly illegal to publish videos taken of other people in public places, which is surely going to be impossible to enforce at the end of the day.
If you mean Penny, I don't think the camera was his problem.
No, it's pro-social. It's teaching them (and others similarly situated) their place.
I simply do not believe that the overall utility of society is increased by these actions, nor the individual utilities of the people involved.
If I wanted to pick apart 'social fabric' to make it impossible for people to trust each other and make it harder to peacefully resolve conflicts and de-escalate violence, this is exactly the sort of behavior I would want to encourage. All-or-nothing zero sum games, mediated by completely anonymous groups of strangers with no skin in the game and selected specifically for their preferences for malicious retribution.
Not sure what you're getting at in your post at all.
That's not what "pro-social" means, though. Pro-social simply meaning that it's reinforcing the social structure. No different than literal hen-pecking. It's a horrible social structure, of course.
What structure is there to reinforce? It is an anarchic free-for-all where any event can - based on the derangements of the day* - serve as punishment or a chance for anyone who wants to hurt people to indulge themselves.
That's all.
* See the Latino man fired for the "white supremacist 'OK' hand-sign at the height of derangement over Floyd.
The structure is people at the top hold out a few jobs that pay well enough to live above all this as a reward to those who create the most value for them.
Then they turn their shock troops (those with nothing to lose) out upon the masses as the stick incentivize them to compete for one of those coveted positions in the highest levels of the low to avoid them) and if anyone with something to lose fights back against these shock troops they get their life and reputation ruined with at best a long, expensive trial and aquittal that leaves them hated and presumed guilty and thus effectively unemployable by half the nation.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I'd say that's the non-standard definition, where the definition I'm using is "Promoting social good and the welfare of the members of a given society."
Not sure why this implies enforcement or reinforcement of a particular social structures, since in my definition social structures can, in fact, be anti-social.
Social structures cannot be anti-social; you're just trying to equate "pro-social" and "good", which doesn't work because society often sucks.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Know your place and doff your cap at your betters and do what you are told by social class superiors, OR ELSE. It looks like a class/caste system developing as an emergent behaviour, with adherence enforced by the internet mob. It's not picking apart the social fabric, it is weaving it.
At least that's my best guess as to what the hot needle means.
Crump's Tweet is helpfully clarifying on that point:
As we all know, capitalized-Americans simply aren't a threat to lower-case-American women and the only reason that she would become upset is as a weapon to cause the capitalized-American undue trouble. If you see a dispute between a capitalized-American and a lower-case-American, it should be obvious whose side one should choose. If it's not obvious yet, you don't know your place.
I thank god every day for leading me out of that hellhole country.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link