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(I'm new, so I'm not sure if this is Culture War.)
Does anyone have any modern dating advice?
I'm interested in finding out what are the "real" rules that people operate under when it comes to dating, which might be different from the rules they ought to have or the rules they claim to have or the rules that they believe that they have (but subconsciously they use different rules). And of course the word "people" is very broad and presumably various subgroups operate in different ways, so I'd be happy for clarification on that point too. (And then of course individuals differ from the norms of the subgroups they belong to). Ideally I'd like to see some objective evidence, but personal experiences/impressions still count for something.
I identify with the difficulties in Scott's classic posts "Untitled" and "Radicalizing the Romanceless". Generally I'm paranoid about approaching women, because I feel like maybe they think I'm a creep and they're just too polite to say so. My biggest concern isn't that they dislike me per se; it's that maybe I've hurt the woman without realizing it. I'm very sensitive about that.
I've done dating sites and speed dating but I can't seem to find any connections. I should note that I have low self-esteem, so rejection is hard on me, which in turn makes it difficult to put myself out there. (Here's a question: How much time per week does the average single straight guy spend on dating sites etc., assuming he's actively looking for a date?)
I'm not a misogynistic incel, but whenever I talk about my dating woes a good portion of people feel the need to tell me "Don't be an incel!" when I haven't said or done anything remotely misogynistic. I figure the Motte is probably a good place to find people who understand my perspective.
I've been looking for dating advice recently, but everything seems contradictory. You're supposed to treat all people equally regardless of gender (which is great!), but at the same time you're supposed to conform to gender stereotypes and you should expect that most women will do the same. People tell me it sucks and it's not fair, but I'm the man and that means I have to initiate contact and get rejected a lot. They also tell me to be persistent but in the same breath they tell me not to be too persistent and it's not clear where to draw the line.
They tell me to be authentic but they also tell me to "fake it till you make it" and act like I'm a cool guy who dates people all the time. They tell me to express my feelings but they also tell me that "women can smell fear" so I should act confident even if I don't feel confident. They tell me to be honest but I've also had a (female) therapist suggest that I should tell some white lies to make myself more attractive. This woman gave a TED talk about her wonderful relationship with her husband (who sadly passed away) and she admits that the relationship began with lies: He falsely claimed to be a Fullbright Scholar to get her attention. Months later she found out the truth, but she was only angry for a short time. Ultimately, his lie made their whole relationship possible!
People tell me that women like it when you express interest in them, but also they think it's creepy. People tell me I must never express interest in a girl at her place of work, but the only relationship I had in the last 10 years began with that exact scenario, and the girl was flattered! (We eventually broke up, and since then I've also approached a few female coworkers at my own workplace, without success.) People tell me that if I show interest in a girl early on then I'm "too easy" and there's no "intrigue", so the appropriate thing is to give little hints about my feelings so she can pursue me. (In which case, apparently I'm taking the female role and she's taking the male role? I'm not offended by that; I'm just confused.)
People say that they met the love of their life on a dating app, but they also say that dating apps are trash and nobody likes them. (But even though everybody hates dating apps, apparently nobody can think of anything better to do.) People tell me it's ok to wear t-shits with the name of my favorite show or whatever (it displays my personality), but also I should never do that and the only way to be attractive is to wear solid colors with the occasional stripe.
One commenter on the Motte wrote "running a 'playing hard to get' game on a woman seems suboptimal. If you are looking for someone with whom you are authentically drawn to/compatible with, why set up these hoops or create a culture of deception within the relationship?", but in the next breath that same person wrote "it is also a risk to be overly eager. It's unattractive". But if I'm very attracted and I act like I'm only mildly attracted, doesn't that create a culture of deception within the relationship??
Long story short, I'm lost.
(And it surely doesn't help that I've got a long history of mental illness and isolation and thus I missed out on a lot of opportunities for social learning.)
I am actually bi, but in practice it's rare for a guy to get my attention, so I'm mostly concerned about how to approach women.
"Radicalizing" was written in 2014, and the advice at the bottom leads me to essays from 2001. It occurs to me that this might be woefully out of date.
Does anyone have any modern advice for me?
The only cure for this is practice. Many years ago I almost threw up with anxiety before my first dating-app date. Now, women are disposable playthings to me and I have absolutely no concern for their feelings at all beyond the instrumental requirements to get them to sleep with me. At a point you come to regard each one as an entertaining brain-teaser (how do I need to rotate this Rubix cube to get it into my bedroom?) rather than as a person to whom the Golden Rule applies. This makes dating totally stress-free because you just don't care if you go down in flames.
TL;DR: There's nothing to make your first forays into the pitiless jungle psychologically easier, but each foray makes the next one easier.
That attitude is horrible, manipulative and sexist.
It is a well-established fact that women are people. Treating people like objects is the essence of evil.
You've probably hurt a lot of women, and I think you're hurting yourself in the meantime. Stop.
What's the greater evil: my psychopathy, or OP's incel-ism?
Overcoming social anxiety to be able to date is a good end. Does it really matter that one uses evil means when the evil means exist only in my subjective qualia, not in the objective outside world?
I am OP, and I'd rather suffer privately than cause a bunch of other innocent people to suffer for my sake. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
The objective outside world includes a number of women whom you have personally treated as disposable playthings. People get hurt when they're treated that way.
What's the evidence that women are hurt by his nonchalantness?
They're fine enough to sleep with him at least.
Less anxiety in the world is better
"Nonchalantness" is selling it short. Butlerian describes his attitude as psychopathy. That's literally the word he used. He also used the word "evil" and the phrase "women are disposable playthings to me and I have absolutely no concern for their feelings at all beyond the instrumental requirements to get them to sleep with me"
I would have thought that the destructive nature of this approach would be self-evident.
If you'd like proof, though, here's a paper about psychopathy in romantic relationships: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0306624X211049187
And here's a few personal testimonials:
https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/zjuxja/im_tired_of_guys_who_just_want_me_for_sex_and_lie/
https://www.readunwritten.com/2017/01/26/im-tired-guys-wanting-not-wanting-date/
https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1462bbn/guy_just_delivered_my_order_asked_for_my_and/
https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1467tq1/the_goddamn_audacity_of_men/
Psychopathy often causes abundant anxiety in its victims.
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Since the latter isn't an evil at all, whatever else it may be, your psychopathy, almost by default.
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Between his post and yours my take away is that I'm now glad I can't date because going to a forest, finding a good sturdy tree branch and hanging oneself seems preferable to cultivating your romance instincts to be sociopathic so you can 'date' effectively.
I hated dating when I did it, I hated being rejected and having to reject, hated the awkwardness, hated that there was basically no one there relatable.
Honestly thanks for the post - I can brew some quality copium out of it.
Brother, human sexuality is nasty, and I honestly think St. Paul had the right idea there.
The elders had the right idea with their arranged marriages. None of this cock-caurosel bullshit that's destroying our replenishment rates.
I’d agree, unless there’s an assload of pressure keeping them together. That’s no good. There’s good arguments that patriarchy was a sheltered workshop for unattractive dudes, and that we’re just getting rid of ‘em now. That’s fine: it’s truly nothing personal, the awkward programmer making $100k/year who can’t get a date is basically just roadkill on the highway of progress.
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A friend I know explained it as women being like a Contract Bridge deal. Each deal has its own contract that you need to make and there are an absolutely huge number of hand card permutations (every woman, like every bridge hand, is effectively unique). Your job is to play what you have been handed and make the contract.
Sometimes certain methods work on some deals while they don't on other deals (finesses etc.) and you can never really be sure until you try them out. Equally though there are general principles that are good to adhere to and will lead to better long term results if you follow them rather than not following them, even though on specific deals they can sometimes be counterproductive. And finally getting good with woman is a learnable skill that comes with practice, much like how getting good at bridge is a learnable skill.
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