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(I'm new, so I'm not sure if this is Culture War.)
Does anyone have any modern dating advice?
I'm interested in finding out what are the "real" rules that people operate under when it comes to dating, which might be different from the rules they ought to have or the rules they claim to have or the rules that they believe that they have (but subconsciously they use different rules). And of course the word "people" is very broad and presumably various subgroups operate in different ways, so I'd be happy for clarification on that point too. (And then of course individuals differ from the norms of the subgroups they belong to). Ideally I'd like to see some objective evidence, but personal experiences/impressions still count for something.
I identify with the difficulties in Scott's classic posts "Untitled" and "Radicalizing the Romanceless". Generally I'm paranoid about approaching women, because I feel like maybe they think I'm a creep and they're just too polite to say so. My biggest concern isn't that they dislike me per se; it's that maybe I've hurt the woman without realizing it. I'm very sensitive about that.
I've done dating sites and speed dating but I can't seem to find any connections. I should note that I have low self-esteem, so rejection is hard on me, which in turn makes it difficult to put myself out there. (Here's a question: How much time per week does the average single straight guy spend on dating sites etc., assuming he's actively looking for a date?)
I'm not a misogynistic incel, but whenever I talk about my dating woes a good portion of people feel the need to tell me "Don't be an incel!" when I haven't said or done anything remotely misogynistic. I figure the Motte is probably a good place to find people who understand my perspective.
I've been looking for dating advice recently, but everything seems contradictory. You're supposed to treat all people equally regardless of gender (which is great!), but at the same time you're supposed to conform to gender stereotypes and you should expect that most women will do the same. People tell me it sucks and it's not fair, but I'm the man and that means I have to initiate contact and get rejected a lot. They also tell me to be persistent but in the same breath they tell me not to be too persistent and it's not clear where to draw the line.
They tell me to be authentic but they also tell me to "fake it till you make it" and act like I'm a cool guy who dates people all the time. They tell me to express my feelings but they also tell me that "women can smell fear" so I should act confident even if I don't feel confident. They tell me to be honest but I've also had a (female) therapist suggest that I should tell some white lies to make myself more attractive. This woman gave a TED talk about her wonderful relationship with her husband (who sadly passed away) and she admits that the relationship began with lies: He falsely claimed to be a Fullbright Scholar to get her attention. Months later she found out the truth, but she was only angry for a short time. Ultimately, his lie made their whole relationship possible!
People tell me that women like it when you express interest in them, but also they think it's creepy. People tell me I must never express interest in a girl at her place of work, but the only relationship I had in the last 10 years began with that exact scenario, and the girl was flattered! (We eventually broke up, and since then I've also approached a few female coworkers at my own workplace, without success.) People tell me that if I show interest in a girl early on then I'm "too easy" and there's no "intrigue", so the appropriate thing is to give little hints about my feelings so she can pursue me. (In which case, apparently I'm taking the female role and she's taking the male role? I'm not offended by that; I'm just confused.)
People say that they met the love of their life on a dating app, but they also say that dating apps are trash and nobody likes them. (But even though everybody hates dating apps, apparently nobody can think of anything better to do.) People tell me it's ok to wear t-shits with the name of my favorite show or whatever (it displays my personality), but also I should never do that and the only way to be attractive is to wear solid colors with the occasional stripe.
One commenter on the Motte wrote "running a 'playing hard to get' game on a woman seems suboptimal. If you are looking for someone with whom you are authentically drawn to/compatible with, why set up these hoops or create a culture of deception within the relationship?", but in the next breath that same person wrote "it is also a risk to be overly eager. It's unattractive". But if I'm very attracted and I act like I'm only mildly attracted, doesn't that create a culture of deception within the relationship??
Long story short, I'm lost.
(And it surely doesn't help that I've got a long history of mental illness and isolation and thus I missed out on a lot of opportunities for social learning.)
I am actually bi, but in practice it's rare for a guy to get my attention, so I'm mostly concerned about how to approach women.
"Radicalizing" was written in 2014, and the advice at the bottom leads me to essays from 2001. It occurs to me that this might be woefully out of date.
Does anyone have any modern advice for me?
Over the course of the last 13-1 months (Recently found myself in a committed relationship), I essentially committed to grinding on dating apps & making myself more attractive.
I went on about 80 first dates during that period, and I'd say about twice that amount in total dates. I lost about 20KG over the period (and it was definitely a seachange from doing that), revitalized my style and took on a ton of 'practical experience'.
Honestly my biggest piece of advice for a guy trying to date in the modern sphere aren't super complicated. Firstly, Lose weight/Hit the gym, it'll massively expand your pool of potential matches. I'll admit I was an outsized beneficiary of doing this, as my baseline characteristics (6'4, White, blonde, muscular, ex-athlete, medium-autistic, symmetrical, 'good job') were all things I was somewhat wasting by being below the minimum level for consideration via obesity. It's way easier to operate in the space when matches & leads aren't scarce, especially as it means you can afford to experiment, build your skillset, and girls frankly like the aura that a guy isn't super desperate about them in particular to start off with.
The actual playing of games is a weird space. I met my partner on a dating app, but she's also in a very quantitative space (and you can draw whatever conclusions you want from that) and we prettymuch immediately clicked together into a space of communication and mutual desire. But I also spent months of my life learning and embodying a complicated normy socio-sexual world of response times, Instagram stories, flexing and jealousy bait.
Increasingly I feel like the whole space has just gotten way out ahead of people, especially as the social media/texting games get so convoluted and byzantine upon themselves and the nature of dating somebody you've met over an app, in which you've got very low potential of just kinda bumping into eachother and rekindling something by happenstance, has combined disastrously with Feminine sexuality being rather 'Ick-driven'. Then again chatting to female friends and having them downright weeping about how some guy who they've left on 'K', heart react and then read in 3 separate texting attempts has stopped talking to them also blows my mind a bit.
This can't be overstated. Men in Anglo countries are largely sold a bill of goods about how to attract women. Appearance is massively more important than is generally communicated. When you ask a woman what attracts them to a man, they don't answer the question honestly. What they tell you is what criteria they use to differentiate between men they are already attracted to. The good news is its really not a mystery. Height, physical fitness, being neurotypical, and being white are the biggest attractors in western countries. (female mate selection is the last bastion of full blown base racism and will never not be) Don't panic if you don't fit the immutable ones like height and race, we all do the best with what we have. Try not to dress like an idiot either; i categorize this one under 'neurotypical'. Once you've made yourself the most attractive version of you, learn to notice indications of interest from women. They are subtle, but when they are into you and you know what to look for its obvious.
Finally, looking for someone can't be your primary motive in life. The Sigma male people take this to an extreme but they are fundamentally correct. Worry about you first. Internalize the reality that you might not meet someone, and that's fine.
Scott, from the Fourth Meditation on Creepiness:
It is not mean. It IS A FEATURE, not a bug.
You've been, as the term is nowadays, RLHF'd.
"As an AI (Autistic Inchling), I cannot have decent relationships nor deserve to"
I mean. Be remarkable, or decide where you want the ambulances. It is that simple. This has always been the way of the world for unattractive people, men and women. The women are just the ambulance patients.
So too, creating real risk is also a feature not a bug. If one autistic manlet in a thousand did hard time or died for being presumptuous...well, that's a feature, not a bug. Remember that the most masculine thing a man can do is to go to war. Real attractive masculinity is made up of shit that makes the red pill look like a Sunday school.
You can probably be happy riding shotgun in ambulances with your partner as the patient. Beats being the patient.
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But the purpose of that feature is mean.
How so? Unattractive people are expected to know their place. Men and women.
And any form of "_____ should know their place" is mean.
This is an application of a more general principle: "If you find yourself advocating things which would not seem incongruous coming from the villains in a young-adult dystopian novel, step back and take a long look in the mirror."
I mean. I consider myself unattractive, for what it is worth. Or, I once was. The thing the disability theorists call desexualization applies to an awful lot of things. I'm not even all that sure that it is a bad thing, although I will say that this idea is rather mean and that the process could be done in a much kinder way if we had celibate life paths. The reason I'm not that sure desexualization is all that bad is because I believe that there's a small but significant chunk of the population that does not make good partners. Much of this is no one's fault: the schizophrenic that can't hold down a job might have been a kind, caring Boy Scout before his first psychotic break freshman year at Ohio State. I will concede that the feature is mean, or at the very least kind of ugly - but I do not know if this is the least bad way to deal with this shit in a modern, Western society.
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