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(I'm new, so I'm not sure if this is Culture War.)
Does anyone have any modern dating advice?
I'm interested in finding out what are the "real" rules that people operate under when it comes to dating, which might be different from the rules they ought to have or the rules they claim to have or the rules that they believe that they have (but subconsciously they use different rules). And of course the word "people" is very broad and presumably various subgroups operate in different ways, so I'd be happy for clarification on that point too. (And then of course individuals differ from the norms of the subgroups they belong to). Ideally I'd like to see some objective evidence, but personal experiences/impressions still count for something.
I identify with the difficulties in Scott's classic posts "Untitled" and "Radicalizing the Romanceless". Generally I'm paranoid about approaching women, because I feel like maybe they think I'm a creep and they're just too polite to say so. My biggest concern isn't that they dislike me per se; it's that maybe I've hurt the woman without realizing it. I'm very sensitive about that.
I've done dating sites and speed dating but I can't seem to find any connections. I should note that I have low self-esteem, so rejection is hard on me, which in turn makes it difficult to put myself out there. (Here's a question: How much time per week does the average single straight guy spend on dating sites etc., assuming he's actively looking for a date?)
I'm not a misogynistic incel, but whenever I talk about my dating woes a good portion of people feel the need to tell me "Don't be an incel!" when I haven't said or done anything remotely misogynistic. I figure the Motte is probably a good place to find people who understand my perspective.
I've been looking for dating advice recently, but everything seems contradictory. You're supposed to treat all people equally regardless of gender (which is great!), but at the same time you're supposed to conform to gender stereotypes and you should expect that most women will do the same. People tell me it sucks and it's not fair, but I'm the man and that means I have to initiate contact and get rejected a lot. They also tell me to be persistent but in the same breath they tell me not to be too persistent and it's not clear where to draw the line.
They tell me to be authentic but they also tell me to "fake it till you make it" and act like I'm a cool guy who dates people all the time. They tell me to express my feelings but they also tell me that "women can smell fear" so I should act confident even if I don't feel confident. They tell me to be honest but I've also had a (female) therapist suggest that I should tell some white lies to make myself more attractive. This woman gave a TED talk about her wonderful relationship with her husband (who sadly passed away) and she admits that the relationship began with lies: He falsely claimed to be a Fullbright Scholar to get her attention. Months later she found out the truth, but she was only angry for a short time. Ultimately, his lie made their whole relationship possible!
People tell me that women like it when you express interest in them, but also they think it's creepy. People tell me I must never express interest in a girl at her place of work, but the only relationship I had in the last 10 years began with that exact scenario, and the girl was flattered! (We eventually broke up, and since then I've also approached a few female coworkers at my own workplace, without success.) People tell me that if I show interest in a girl early on then I'm "too easy" and there's no "intrigue", so the appropriate thing is to give little hints about my feelings so she can pursue me. (In which case, apparently I'm taking the female role and she's taking the male role? I'm not offended by that; I'm just confused.)
People say that they met the love of their life on a dating app, but they also say that dating apps are trash and nobody likes them. (But even though everybody hates dating apps, apparently nobody can think of anything better to do.) People tell me it's ok to wear t-shits with the name of my favorite show or whatever (it displays my personality), but also I should never do that and the only way to be attractive is to wear solid colors with the occasional stripe.
One commenter on the Motte wrote "running a 'playing hard to get' game on a woman seems suboptimal. If you are looking for someone with whom you are authentically drawn to/compatible with, why set up these hoops or create a culture of deception within the relationship?", but in the next breath that same person wrote "it is also a risk to be overly eager. It's unattractive". But if I'm very attracted and I act like I'm only mildly attracted, doesn't that create a culture of deception within the relationship??
Long story short, I'm lost.
(And it surely doesn't help that I've got a long history of mental illness and isolation and thus I missed out on a lot of opportunities for social learning.)
I am actually bi, but in practice it's rare for a guy to get my attention, so I'm mostly concerned about how to approach women.
"Radicalizing" was written in 2014, and the advice at the bottom leads me to essays from 2001. It occurs to me that this might be woefully out of date.
Does anyone have any modern advice for me?
I (35M) just got married to a woman I met on hinge. She’s awesome and I brag about her to anyone who’ll listen. Before that, though, I was an extremely active dater and hooker-upper. I probably went on dates with a couple hundred women and slept with about a hundred. Here are some thoughts:
Dating can be extremely fun!! You should be excited to get out and do this. Chasing girls is fun. Banter is fun. Flirting is fun. Leaning in for the first kiss or knee touch or any small escalation is fun. Slightly risky behavior is super fun. Try to have fun, don’t just obsess about the destination. I racked up quite a body count and have great memories about a lot of these girls and experiences still. So do they. I love my wife more than dating but I loved the process of dating and sleeping with hot women a lot too.
Location matters, a lot. I was dating mostly in the Bay Area (but would also go on lots of one-offs while traveling for work in other cities). There are just way more people to date in a city and even though there’s also more competition a deep market is good for everybody. If you are not in a big city and are really serious about dating, you should move to one. New York is the best in the US, by a lot, but most big cities are good.
Take 3 months and improve all the low hanging things you can about yourself. These are mostly physical. Lose weight if you’re even a little overweight. Go to the gym. Run, do cardio. Take care of your skin. Learn how to dress well. Get a good haircut. Switch to contacts if you have glasses. If you have bad teeth, get them fixed. Old me resented that I had to change something so shallow about myself, but I did it, and it vastly expanded my dating options and dating success. I personally wouldn’t go this far, but if you really have a big physical flaw on your face, consider cosmetic surgery. Also, these improvements will benefit you in your non-dating life as well.
Get over any ego/insecurity you feel. You just need to ask lots of people out and you’ll get rejected a lot at various stages. That’s fine. You’ll get much much better with practice, and also learning to persevere in the face of rejection is a good skill.
Most of my dates came from apps, with one-off random things materializing from in person encounters. Tinder sucks, bumble and hinge are good, and Raya is the best.
It’s important to not come across like a loser. Nobody wants to date a loser. You need to project confidence, happiness, and can’t seem desperate. That said, earnestness (not obsessiveness) is generally attractive, so don’t bother playing games like “only one text in a row” or “don’t text right away after the first date.” If you like the girl it’s fine to say so. That said, don’t write ridiculous walls of text if she’s not reciprocating.
You need to move from app convo to text to date planning to date quickly. Like 10 on app texts is plenty to ask for her number and suggest meeting up. It’s impossible to overstate how many matches a typical woman will have, and however witty or special you think you are over text you have no hope of standing out. You need to meet up in person, quickly. If you don’t meet up within a week of matching you probably won’t meet up.
Things get way easier with age. I was hooking up with way more hot 21 year olds when I was 30 than when I was 21.
Don’t get too invested in any one person, especially early on. As a man, you will typically be the one pushing for dates/sex initially, but the natural dynamics is that the woman will be pushing for the more serious things later on. Don’t bother getting invested until this point.
The advice for hooking up is exactly the same as the advice for a serious relationship. You need to get your foot in the door first and foremost. That’s the hardest part as a guy. In my experience the conversion rate from “she wants to have sex” to “she wants something serious” is nearly 100%.
Good luck; have fun.
Your experience is vastly different from my own.
It's hard to have fun on a date if nobody agrees to go on a date with me in the first place.
This may be a key problem for me. And unfortunately it wouldn't be easy for me to move.
Unfortunately, mental illness makes all of this more difficult than it would otherwise be. I tried getting contacts, for instance, but I found it psychologically impossible to actually stick the thing in my eye, even with a optometrist's assistant trying to help me.
I'm told that Raya has a 1% acceptance rate. https://elitedatingmanagers.com/raya-app/
If you're on Raya, maybe that's because you're among the top 1% hottest (or most popular) men in the world, which probably explains why you've had so many partners.
This does not match my experience.
The link about Raya also states it used to be easier to get accepted.
In general, this is a common theme with dating apps. Most of them work much better (for men) during their first growth phase before becoming too mainstream and flooded and monetized. So it is a good idea to be on the look for new popular apps.
Would the cycle of dating apps being better at the start be weak evidence that early-adoption correlates with attractiveness in some ways?
The obvious problem with the apps is that average female gets a shit ton of attention from low quality men, while average men gets very little attention unless he paid/put effort into good photos. Too many women who aren't looking for actual dates but just some ego boost or instagram followers.
And when I say low quality men, I mean typically absolutely horrible and rude. Nobody wants to deal with that shit. Just like nobody wants to deal with women who has no intention of meeting up. Especially Tinder was absolute garbage when I was still using it a couple years ago.
So desirable young women actually looking to date typically migrate to the new shiny app (typically with a feminist vibe as that gives women some confidence) every couple of years. The user count will be small but much higher quality and still sufficient in large cities. Until it gets discovered by common people as "the app". Then rinse and repeat.
So to answer your question, I think the early-adoption correlates with being a bit savvier and putting some more effort into getting good dates.
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