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I’m in my mid 30’s and I have recently come to the realization that I’m on the autism spectrum and that I have lived most of my life without knowing this. I always thought I was just kind of shy. Since I wasn’t like the autistic people in special classes I never considered that I may also be on the spectrum, just to a much lesser degree.
For much of my life being on the autism spectrum caused me no noticeable problems. I was a great student and I had school, video games, and Magic: the Gathering to keep me occupied. I didn’t have many friends, but I had a close friend, and people seemed to respect me because I was book smart.
After I graduated college, the autism became more of a problem. I was behind on social milestones (only had gone on a handful or dates, no long-term girlfriend, being on a much slower career trajectory than my peers due to lack of social skills even though I had the technical competence). People in my life were becoming less centrist and more polarized and I started losing interest in trying to make/maintain friendships.
I can often think of insightful/interesting things to add to many conversations, but I mostly don’t say them due to fear of them not meeting someone’s social expectations. My body language is mostly neutral. I don’t smile much and I avoid eye contact. I think far too long about things because my brain is slower at processing social information than a neurotypical person. I use more rule-based thinking and try to model how other people perceive things. Even when I say the thing people want to hear it takes me longer to come up with what I’m going to say and I feel like I come off as unnatural. When I inevitably say/or do something that people respond poorly to I dwell on it for a long time and keep thinking about what I should have done differently. Over time I’ve learned that I can’t please most people because autism prevents me from acting like a neurotypical person no matter how hard I try. Even if I memorize a ton of social rules and prepare for many conversation paths it just frustrates me that I have to ‘pretend’ and ‘play social games’ in order to be liked. I now avoid many social interactions because they are frustrating and I gain very little from them.
Back when I was trying to improve my social skills I put a lot of effort in to trying to get better. I would go to meetups and volunteer and generally try to be likable. Nothing much came from my efforts and it just caused me to become more frustrated with social conventions. For reference, I also exercise a lot and am in good physical shape and am 5’ 11’’.
The most success I had at growing my social skills was when I moved to an apartment with a pool and I would drink on the weekends and make friends at the pool. Those friendships were ephemeral and didn’t last after I moved to a different apartment. I also didn’t like that I was drinking up to 2 days a week and was starting to get mild hangovers and alcohol was in conflict with my otherwise healthy lifestyle.
In an effort to give up drinking but remain social I switched to a Gaba-B receptor agonist called Phenibut. I only use it once a week to avoid tolerance and addiction. It is kind of like alcohol but without the impairment. It made me feel calm/relaxed and mildly more social. It wasn’t quite strong enough, and being a truth-seeker, I felt emboldened to disregard the very strong warnings about never mixing alcohol with Phenibut to find out what would really happen. Technically, this is very dangerous combination because combining depressants can lead to unpredictable synergistic effects that cause too much respiratory depression. On the other hand, most reports said the combination was usually just like every beer you drink feels like 2-3 beers. I felt it should be mostly safe to use a low dose of Phenibut and have 1 drink. It was a euphoric feeling and eventually I developed a higher dose protocol that I now use up to once a week. I never exceed .05-.08 BAC and always wait >4 hours after the Phenibut to drink. Even that could be dangerous for some people so please do not mix Phenibut and alcohol.
The downsides to mixing Phenibut + alcohol that I’ve personally noticed:
Way easier to accidently have short-term memory impairment. Even at .05 BAC I forget some minor details.
Alcohol is bad for your body.
Sleep cycle gets interrupted and I get tired out more easily on sober days.
Very unfiltered – easy to accidently say something offensive or do something you regret later.
Emotions feel much stronger and it becomes harder to regulate emotionally driven behavior. (I have a very chill personality so I never got into a fight or anything).
Sober people find your behavior off-putting and distance themselves from you. I care less and less about trying to fit in even when I’m 100% sober. I avoid sober interactions even more because they are dull and boring compared to my fun Phenibut interactions.
The Phenibut + alcohol protocol made me feel extreme social confidence (but you definitely appear intoxicated), euphoria, a desire to socialize, music sounds amazing, a calm/relaxed feeling that lasts for about 24 hours, near zero social anxiety, and a minimal hangover. In an order to use the protocol to improve my sober life I further developed an exposure therapy protocol while intoxicated. I would go to the bars to ‘esoteric dance’. To my surprise many people would appreciate my weird behavior and would say things like I gave off good vibe or they wanted to try the ‘esoteric dance’ with me. I then internalized many lessons that made sober socializing much easier:
Socializing can be fun
Being polarizing can be fun, the social limits are often way further than where you think they are
Most people aren’t judging you as harshly as you judge yourself
Bad reactions can easily be rationalized away (such as: that guy was just jealous of the attention I was getting)
If people don’t like you then just avoid them and find someone who does like you
When I sober up my social anxiety is permanently decreased from baseline, but I still overthink things and struggle with social interactions. I just now care far less about other people’s opinion of me and a social interaction gone bad doesn’t really even bother me anymore. I don’t think I’ve gotten much better at sober interactions though as most of the social skills don’t translate into sober environments. I also haven’t been able to leverage my new social skills to get a girlfriend. The problem is girls like me when I’m intoxicated but I’m only like that 1 day a week max. My personality is completely different when I’m sober.
On the other hand I feel much better now that I figured out how to connect with people and feel desired. It is kind of depressing that people like me so much better when I’m intoxicated than sober though.
I feel like I need to do more work and self-improvement to fix the issues in my life. I need to deal with the trauma of living life so long with undiagnosed autism, and to develop better social skills when sober. Continuing to use Phenibut and alcohol with exposure therapy can’t fix the remaining problems.
I don’t think regular therapy is the answer because I think I need psychoactive substances to access and modify subconscious beliefs. My rational defenses are too strong for traditional therapy. I don’t trust the medical establishment because:
Psychoactive psychotherapy is illegal despite all the research showing that it is effective.
US medical professionals don’t understand much about Phenibut and the one time I mentioned it to a doctor they are just like you should quit using it. My vitals/bloodwork are all in healthy ranges.
I have asymmetric hearing loss and I was told I’m not a hearing aid candidate. I don’t have much hope that the medical establishment can fix my issues.
I also get very frustrated that psychedelics are illegal because I think if I could legally take them under the guidance of a therapist I could fix a lot of my issues without the dangerous alcohol and Phenibut combination. I’m too distrusting of people and bad at social interactions to try to find someone from the psychedelic underground.
Anyway, I just feel kind of stuck in life and I don’t see any good options on how I can fix the major problems in my life. Any ideas/feedback would be appreciated.
I don't know if 'autism' is really the right word for this, so much as it's a combination of high conscientousness/low extroversion that doesn't quite amount to avoidant or schizotypal personality disorder, but still impairs your ability to form relationships and engage socially. And I think this kind of thing is actually very common, just not really talked about that much because so much of our society and media and culture is dominated by better-functioning people.
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I feel like I could have written this, especially the parts about being much more likeable and fun when intoxicated. Granted good old alcohol on its own usually does the trick for me, but the Phenibut sounds interesting.
I don’t have any good advice for you. I’ve been dealing with social anxiousness my whole life. I have a few close friends, my parents, two of my brothers, and a girlfriend who I all love, but I absolutely feel socially isolated. I haven’t made a new close connection in years, and it’s caused me significant agitation and anxiety. I’ve always wondered whether I’m actually on the spectrum or if my social confidence has been harmed from rejection and isolation over the years. Hard to say.
I’ve tried many things to help fix this: sports, theater, improv, therapy, antidepressants, but at the end of the day, I just generally do not feel comfortable around new people. Clearly I want/need people around me, but I struggle to actually feel comfortable. All I can say is that it sucks big time. I’m thankful for my intelligence, but sometimes I’d rather be a moron with social skills than an intelligent loner.
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I would recommend Burning Man regional events and otherwise becoming involved in the burner community. There are a lot of autists there and a lot of psychedelics. It might take you a couple of years, but you could probably find an underground psychedelic therapist. You might also make lasting friendships. You simply need to be helpful and not incompetent at car camping in the woods/desert. Alternately, you could go to Oregon and look there for different types of alternative healers that practice with psychedelics; it's decriminalized there. IIRC it's also legal in the Netherlands, or at least tolerated the same way they're OK with pot and head shops.
Unfortunately, none of this is going to be cheap or easy. It will cost you thousands. Good luck.
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Stuck how? How do you feel your life would be different if you weren't stuck?
What are the major problems?
Do you have any goals you're currently working towards?
I’m stuck not having the social life I want. Other than my 1 close friend I’ve gotten worse at making and maintaining friendships. I just have too many disappointing experiences with sober social interactions that I’ve learned it is just hopeless to continue trying to cultivate friendships.
If psychedelics were legal I feel like I could get my life unstuck. I could make friends with people that explore psychedelics because they would be more open to being friends with a neurodiverse person. When I’m knowledgeable and/or passionate about a topic it becomes much easier for me to make friends. It just doesn’t work with psychedelics because it is not something I feel comfortable openly discussing due to the legal status. At the very least I could use psychedelics to change my perspective on life and feel more appreciative about things instead of focusing on what I missed out due to being on the autism spectrum.
I would say the major problem is that I don’t have the level of social connection that I desire (especially a girlfriend, even though I have a low sex drive). I also can’t openly discuss/explore psychedelics which has become a major passion of mine. The other things I’m interested in are mostly solitary and don’t lead to social connection.
I go to the gym and bicycle a lot, but I don’t really consider a goal because it is just a routine I’ve been doing for so long. I do have a goal to read a lot more this year. I already have a bunch of books selected, but I’ve been spending my reading time on Reddit instead of getting to the books. I also started a new job this year so my goal is to continue making a good impression and improving processes.
A lot of what you wrote in your OP resonated with me and I could see my younger self in much of it. My middle son, has an autism diagnoses . Many of areas where he struggles I also struggle(d).
I have work friends, and a few local friends, but I'd describe my wife as my best friend. When I was younger and single I had 'friends' to go out to pubs or clubs / dinner with, but none I'd describe as deep friendships and most involved some amount of alcohol.
16 - 26 was sort of a lost decade for me. Too much drinking, in spite of some negative consequences. Often drinking more than I wanted or had planned. Too much time in my own head. Lots of short 'relationships' that I seemed to stumble into and out of. Some sexual confusion, we called it expirementation at the time. There were periods of couch surfing. My family situation was unhelpful.
Following a series of professional setbacks (.com bust / airlines tanking after 9/11) I decided I needed a major change. I moved to Eastern Europe to teach English as a foreign language. Made an effort to drink less, spend more time outside and less in my head. Set short term goals, sometimes small ones, that would move me in the direction of long term goals. I tried to view the 'now' as an opportunity to setup future AvocadoPanic for success or failure. The chief long-term goal I set during this time was to be married before I was 30. While drinking less my libido returned, which while at times was uncomfortable, made it easier to identify women I was attracted to. I made an effort to meet women. I would become a regular places that women in the target cohort frequented. I did my best to be friendly an affable. Trying to be a good listener meant I had to talk less. If eye contact was too much I would look at their mouths or the center of their foreheads, I still worried at times if I was making too much or not enough 'eye contact'. I also tended to select locations that were dimmly lit or had pronounced shadows. Once I started viewing this as practice / developing a sociability skill set, the failures didn't bother me, it was all low stakes. I did initially struggle expressing my desire, most women still expected men to make the first move. Eventually one of these women I'd met in a pub, I encountered again at a birthday party. We married a bit less than 3 years later, 7 months before I turned 30.
Making friends seems to increase with difficulty as you age, especially for men. The most successful I've been has been through fraternal service organizations, Rotary, Lions Club, etc. I find the scheduled routine helpful. Meetings occur regularly, there's some structure, and there are opportunities for commitment / service. I find the routine easier to maintain if I feel slightly obligated to attend. Not all the local clubs will be the same, there were Rotary clubs I liked and some I didn't. Most of these traditional clubs welcome visitors and you can visit several to see if there's one you'd like. They're everywhere too, which if you move or relocate is very helpful.
Having children has also helped me meet people as there are lots of children's activities and parties where I can meet other dads.
We've also recently started attending church. Our local church aligns reasonably well our politics, there are no BLM, pride or Ukraine flags. I enjoy the fellowship and it's nice to meet similarly minded people from our town.
Professionally my work is uninspiring, but it allows me to support my family (just) in a mostly middle class lifestyle if we're careful and for my wife to be a homemaker. The work / life balance also allows me to be present nearly as much as I want for my wife and children. I could perhaps increase my income if I were will to adjust that balance. The 'politics' at work I still find confusing and somewhat difficult to navigate. I've found The Gervais Principle to be an accurate description of most of the larger organizations I've worked in. I don't believe that the guys adept at office politics or making more money are significantly happier or have better lives than I do.
You've mentioned the illegality of psychedelics several times, why do you see this as an impediment? Psychedelic mushrooms are easy to grow. There are jurisdictions where some psychedelics are permitted.
I typically prefer weed (cannabis) to alcohol now. Though I'm glad I didn't start as a teen. I don't think it would have been good for me.
Other than the gym and bicycling, what activities do you do regularly? Are there any that you particularly enjoy or have a talent for? Have you considered a cycle club?
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response.
There actually is something like a fraternal service organization near me that I’ve started exploring. I was recently thinking about how I might try to become more involved with it.
Every once in a while I’ll cycle with a friend, but I prefer cycling alone. I’ve come to be very content and at peace with being alone. I find social interactions too frustrating; the effort does not seem to be worth the reward anymore. I’ve only come to feel this way as I’ve hit my 30’s. When I was younger I was much more hopeful that my social skills would improve and that I could meet a girlfriend and add some close friends to my social circle. ‘System 2’ thinking now tells me just give up on improving social skills and focus more on being content with everything else in my life. However, there is still a ‘System 1’ desire for more social connection in my life. The ‘System 1’ desire is mostly buried when I’m sober.
I used to volunteer with dogs before the pandemic and I enjoyed that, but I never made any lasting connections from it (because I had a specific shift and you always interacted with the same handful of people). Sometimes I’ll get really interested/focused on the stock market, but I no longer try to actively invest – it caused too much anxiety and was a distraction to think about during work hours.
The thing with psychedelics is that there is a non-zero chance of something bad happening from breaking the law. I could lose my job or go to jail if I trusted the wrong person. Granted, this is very unlikely to happen especially because I live in a place where the enforcement of psychedelic laws is pretty lax. I still have anxiety about it though because I lack the social skills to navigate interactions about illegal activities. Additionally, I want to be able to openly talk about psychedelics with family/friends and I don’t feel comfortable doing that when they are illegal. It would just be another part of me that I have to keep quiet about around most people.
I understand you prefer cycling alone. I often prefer my own company. Throughout my life I've never felt lonely when alone. Participation in occasional group activities does not preclude preferred activities alone.
In a reply to another post you acknowledge when under the influence you can see that
This may be one of those patterns. I've found women, when evaluating a potential partner, like to see that he has friends. Also a larger social group, even fairly shallow attachments, are very helpful when looking for a spouse.
Participation in these groups may feel unnatural and unrewarding. I would encourage you to persist and try more / different groups and settings. Any Irish pubs near you that have a regular music session?
That makes sense, but I think the ‘crux’ of the issue something different.
To use an analogy: I would like to buy a house, but I don’t want to pay the current market price. If I buy a house I’ve made commitment that makes me more dependent on my job and that is a feeling that don’t like.
I want to be desired and liked by other people, but I don’t want to pay the cost of having to conform to the social rules. Then I have a lot of internal conflict because I have two competing desires: the desire not play ‘dumb’ social games and the desire to be liked. I can either be unhappy because I’m not desired by other people, or I can be unhappy because I’m playing ‘dumb’ social games.
I’m actually a well-known regular at some of the local bars. Lots of people chat with me (including women I find attractive) and I have fun social experiences. However, the people that like me at the bar like me because of my ‘clownish’ entertaining antics. I want to be desired because I’m a thoughtful, analytic, ‘nice’, and reliable person. But in order to ‘turn-on’ my social mode I have to be intoxicated to a level where I’m no longer very thoughtful or analytical. I can think of many ‘clownish’ ways to get attention that cause other people to like me. But I don’t want to be liked/desired for ‘clownish’ behavior. And I can’t figure out how to be socially successful without being ‘clownish’. The people I meet at bars want the fun guy that knows how to party, not the thoughtful/analytical guy that I’m the other 90% of the time.
It's been my experience that people like me, or find me attractive for reasons I don't or didn't expect. Frequently for reasons I didn't value or see in myself.
Having to be 'on' when out can be tiring.
I was fortunate, while being out and on, I found a thoughtful analytical woman. We enjoyed staying in, being quiet, thoughtful and analytical together.
Is it your perception that you're only liked when clowinsh?
Have you told any of the women that you've met that you're looking for a wife and mother of your children? Even if it's only in general and not her specifically?
It can help you by getting this larger social group that already likes you, even if your perception is that they only like the clown, to help you find the partner you want.
The universe is unlikely to send you a thoughtful, analytical, fertile women in a meet cute scenario. You need to actively look, and be upfront with what you want.
Telling women early you want a wife and children may scare some off. That's ok, they're not who your looking for. If you tell them and they stay, they're candidates. Don't take them to the places / times where you need to be on. Go places you can walk and talk and be thoughtful.
The advice for online dating, is to move to IRL as soon as possible. For me I needed to move to where I wasn't 'on' as soon as possible. Women that were looking for a light, easy goodtime would loose interest. Women that wanted a husband and father for their children may think, still waters run deep, and enjoy getting to know this truer self you reveal to her.
Do you have any proxies to help identify the sort of woman you want? For me, women in science, specifically lab sciences where she is or was doing bench work. I found many to be of a temperament that suited me. People often talk more about their work, than their personalities or desires in a partner. I've also found that how people talk about their work can be more revealing than their (mis)perceptions about themselves.
Also if there's anywhere you can go to be thoughtful and analytical that there are also women; public lectures / talks etc. These are good places to take women on 'dates', gives you something to discuss / argue about over a meal later.
It is my observation that I get a lot of attention and good reception when I’m intoxicated and clownish. I’ll talk to a double-digit number of strangers in the night and feel great about 90%+ of the interactions.
When sober I’m too shy to talk to strangers unless there is some shared purpose (such as needing to meet with an employee to discuss something for work). I’m also pretty sure I’m unknowingly giving off closed-off body language verbally so interactions quickly run out of steam and most people don’t initiate interactions with me.
I’m only looking for a long-term monogamous relationship but not marriage. Going through the breakup of a long-term relationship was one of my most emotionally devasting experiences in life. I can’t risk going through a divorce. I know the odds are stacked against me for having a successful marriage.
I have no interest in kids. I have too much trouble with social interactions and I would have trouble raising a kid. I don’t really like interacting with other people’s kids either. A kid would have higher risk of being on the autism spectrum.
I agree with you here. I should appreciate the attention that I get for being clownish and potentially people may also come to like my other qualities. Even the clownish behavior has an interesting backstory and does showcase some good qualities (like cleverness, confidence, and not being too uptight).
I feel like any of these could have potential:
Science background – proxy for interest in truth and not being too caught up in tribal politics.
Healthcare worker – Honest signal of selflessness (devoting yourself to tough career that isn’t all the financially rewarding compared to the alternatives).
Background in using/researching psychedelics – proxy for open-mindedness and having compassion for people with mental illness.
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If you want to get psychedelics without dealing with anyone in person, the dark web is the way to go.
But I also want to use them and do integration sessions under the supervision of a medical professional (or an experienced user at minimum).
Even with Phenibut I hit a vulnerable state on the comedown where I become aware of beliefs that I don’t notice when I’m sober. I become very open to admitting that my routines and patterns of behavior may not be optimal and I become very open to the idea of making changes. For instance, I’ll tell myself that I should connect more with people and make an effort to call people or message people more often. But then I sober up and my rational defenses return – I don’t like making phone calls and messaging people usually leads to pointless small talk so I avoid it. When I’m in the vulnerable state it would be great to have someone to talk through these things with so that I have a higher chance of following up when sober, or so that they can optimize the plan so it is more is more palatable to my sober self.
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