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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   33018 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 19, 2023

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Memoirs and other historical documents obtained by later researchers seem to generally support Flynn’s accusations by indicating that Roosevelt ordered his diplomats to exert enormous pressure upon both the British and Polish governments to avoid any negotiated settlement with Germany, thereby leading to the outbreak of World War II in 1939.

Wow, Germany was provoked into invading Poland; because, they were not just handed Polish land on a silver platter. What an argument. Just like Russia was provoked into invading Ukraine; because, they were not just handed eastern Ukraine on a silver platter.

Wow, Germany was provoked into invading Poland; because, they were not just handed Polish land on a silver platter. What an argument.

That's pretty far away from the argument, and quite irrelevant to the passage you are quoting.

Poland, by refusing to hand over Danzig and working through Germany to get what they wanted, were aligning themselves with Britain and the US to get what they wanted. What's being highlighted is that Poland made the decision to stand against Germany on the basis that they had the backing of the US and Britain. A basis that, according to Flynn, was being heavily pushed on the Poles by the US.

Considering the US and Britain didn't have any ability to stand by their word, going against Germany was maybe the worst decision ever made by Polish statesmen. Getting some of the worst of the war and post-war occupation.

going against Germany was maybe the worst decision ever made by Polish statesmen

Given that Germans planned to murder or enslave Poles, what was the alternative? (RP II leaders made numerous stupid decisions, not surrendering to country that wants to exterminate you was hardly one of them - it was at least worth trying to defend and winning was plausible even if very unlikely)

You've replied to multiple comments of mine saying the same thing. I don't care for your hysterics, but it would be much more manageable to steer the conversation somewhere productive if you could keep them to a single comment, thanks.

It is far away from the argument, but it's also far more correct. Note that your framing is selectively allocating agency to the Poles and the Brits/Germans to choose in response to the German demands, just as Flynn's framing attributes agency to the American influence driving others decisions, but neither address that the Germans themselves had the agency in not only making unreasonable demands, but also the agency to not make those demands. The dictator is not an immovable fact of nature, for which there is no reasoning and agency only exists with the responder. The dictator is an agent, and has used their agency to posit the demand in the first place.

Avoiding this point- that people are resisting unreasonable German demands- is required to credibly claim that the Poles were unreasonable in not compromising to them, because there is no failure in reason or competence to resist the unreasonable. But the German Nazis were being unreasonable, and the other actors were being reasonable in resisting the unreasonable, and so re-establing the actual originating context- that the Germans were the originating actors and making unreasonable demands- is the more correct point for conveying not the argument, but the actual context the argument is trying to ignore.

Your contention relies on the Germans requests being unreasonable when you could just as easily say that they weren't. Not the least considering Poland could have been much better for it, along with all of Europe, if they had aligned themselves with Germany against communism and what National Socialists recognized as capitalism in the hands of the international jew.

My argument isn't selective about anything. I think you should step back and recognize just what narrative is being revised. Hitler could have done things differently, but the obvious case here is that so could everyone else. In the context of general WW2 narratives that shovel all blame on Hitler in particular, and to a lesser extent the Treaty of Versailles, there exists an obvious angle of blame that is never talked about lest it draw attention away from the great myths we have created out of Hitler and the holocaust.

Not the least considering Poland could have been much better for it, along with all of Europe, if they had aligned themselves with Germany against communism

No, it would not go better for Poland given that Germans genuinely consider Poles as subhumans.

what National Socialists recognized as capitalism in the hands of the international jew.

that particular stupidity solved nothing, was mistaken and resulted in several millions of innocent people being murdered

You pro-slavery, pro-mass-murder and pro-Hitler (ok, that is redundant a bit) apologia is spectacularly stupid and evil.

You pro-slavery, pro-mass-murder and pro-Hitler (ok, that is redundant a bit) apologia is spectacularly stupid and evil.

Less antagonism, please.

No, it would not go better for Poland given that Germans genuinely consider Poles as subhumans.

Please stop telling lies. The Germans considered West-Poles to be aryans. Hitler said of slavs that they were docile so long they had food and drink.

that particular stupidity solved nothing, was mistaken and resulted in several millions of innocent people being murdered

Please engage with statements in context. This is a waste of time.

You pro-slavery, pro-mass-murder and pro-Hitler (ok, that is redundant a bit) apologia is spectacularly stupid and evil.

This isn't an argument and makes no sense since I have made no pro-slavery or pro-mass-murder statements.

The Germans considered West-Poles to be aryans. Hitler said of slavs that they were docile so long they had food and drink.

Are you now in full scale denial? Germans proceeded to murder people who were not docile.

Germans considered West-Poles to be aryans

Only some of them, and that was only subgroup anyway. And you were eligible if you cooperated with mass-murdering nazis.

They killed British and American soldiers too. You know, because there was a war.

Only some of them, and that was only subgroup anyway.

West-Poles, according to Nazi racial law, were aryans.

And you were eligible if you cooperated with mass-murdering nazis.

Seems like we have gone very far away from Germans considering all Poles subhumans very fast.

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Your contention relies on the Germans requests being unreasonable when you could just as easily say that they weren't.

It would be very easy to say many false things, but they would remain false, hence why not even you claim that the German grivance narrative driving the demands was justified.

Not the least considering Poland could have been much better for it, along with all of Europe, if they had aligned themselves with Germany against communism and what National Socialists recognized as capitalism in the hands of the international jew.

Their reward would have been to be colonized, treated as subhuman, and progressively enslaved and exterminated, as per the policy statements and intentions of the German rieche.

My argument isn't selective about anything.

It is very selective about many things.

I think you should step back and recognize just what narrative is being revised. Hitler could have done things differently, but the obvious case here is that so could everyone else.

This is irrelevant to the reasonableness of other people, as Hitler did NOT do things differently, and people were making decisions based on what he DID do, which was unreasonable by standards both contemporary to now and contemporary to then.

In the context of general WW2 narratives that shovel all blame on Hitler in particular, and to a lesser extent the Treaty of Versailles,

These narratives are false, not least because Stalin had his fair share in allying with Hitler, and the Treaty of Versailles was a red herring that was not a justified grievance for German actions.

there exists an obvious angle of blame that is never talked about lest it draw attention away from the great myths we have created out of Hitler and the holocaust.

There are no great myths of Hitler or the holocaust. There is banality of incompetence and evil, and those who wish to dismiss it away in their mediocrity.

It would be very easy to say many false things, but they would remain false, hence why not even you claim that the German grivance narrative driving the demands was justified.

I don't pretend to know either way which geopolitical claims are more justified since I assume all actors are demanding what bests suits them at the time. And the world that would have been if things had gone differently is not known to anyone. Considering how easy you find it to say and believe false things I can only question your confidence.

Their reward would have been to be colonized, treated as subhuman, and progressively enslaved and exterminated, as per the policy statements and intentions of the German rieche.

As per war propaganda driven by those who were at war with Germany. The Germans said the same thing about the allies.

It is very selective about many things.

?

This is irrelevant to the reasonableness of other people, as Hitler did NOT do things differently, and people were making decisions based on what he DID do, which was unreasonable by standards both contemporary to now and contemporary to then.

"Reasonableness" in this context is nonsense. There was nothing 'reasonable' about Germany playing second fiddle to Britain and France whilst the Soviet Union amassed power. Though it's much easier to simply retroactively assign reason to the victors.

There are no great myths of Hitler or the holocaust. There is banality of incompetence and evil, and those who wish to dismiss it away in their mediocrity.

You rely on these myths to maintain your viewpoints. The Germans weren't evil and relying on verbal constructs to sneak such words into the conversation is all you have. Since your viewpoint relies on condemnation of the evil vs good rather than objectivity and analysis.

I don't pretend to know either way which geopolitical claims are more justified

And I know that German claims of being superior to Slavs and Jews and being entitled to murder and enslave them were wrong and not justified. In the end even Hitler renounced claim of German superiority.

The Germans weren't evil

Germans deliberately murdered and enslaved millions of innocent people, planned to do more on that on gigantic scale with large scale genocide.

Feel free to call it differently, for me "were evil" is a fitting description for people doing it, but I would be happy with more descriptive version.

And I know that German claims of being superior to Slavs and Jews and being entitled to murder and enslave them were wrong and not justified. In the end even Hitler renounced claim of German superiority.

What are you even saying? How does this relate to any of what I wrote? 'I know this and that!'

Germans deliberately murdered and enslaved millions of innocent people, planned to do more on that on gigantic scale with large scale genocide.

Then why did the person I was replying to use the concept 'banality of evil'? There's no need for you in this conversation, given your differing views to the person I was replying to, especially since you are making no sense in relation to what was being discussed by us.

Feel free to call it differently, for me "were evil" is a fitting description for people doing it, but I would be happy with more descriptive version.

I am doing so and I don't care one bit for what you prefer given your comically simplistic view on history.

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