site banner
ZorbaTHut  1yr ago (text post)   Edited 1yr ago   38245 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 12, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

40
Bottom New Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

However, I think it is completely and utterly fair to say that if a school is performing poorly, then the first step towards a solution should be examining why it is poorly run, and holding those who are in charge of it accountable. Then one should examine if the school is adequately funded and whether increasing funds would be likely to help.

No disagreement here.

In short, if we assume that the Yeshivas are failing to educate their students in important subjects, I DO NOT see why we should assume the reasons for this are somehow inherently different than if a public school likewise fails at the task.

As other commenters have mentioned, Hasidic Jews are an insular community who are politically organized to give little and take lots. They appear to actively disdain and prevent their community members from seeking employment and instead just study religion all day. They very much violate the unspoken assumption that a school is trying to make a better American citizen (loosely defined as that is) who will not take from the public more than necessary. I'd say that's deserving of higher scrutiny.

They very much violate the unspoken assumption that a school is trying to make a better American citizen

Then public schools are worse. The Hasids are just scamming America, not trying to train its executioners.

This comment and your other one:

Yes, how dare they be free to practice their dumb religion? This is America.

Are low quality.

I see you participating heavily in this discussion and some of your other comments are better contributions.

But there are some rule violations. Please try to support controversial arguments with evidence. Speak plainly and without sarcasm. Do not be antagonistic or inflammatory.

Alright, but that's just grounds to fix all of them, not declare that what the Hasids do doesn't matter.

Edit: Also, that's an incendiary and divisive way of speaking about them. They have a different view on what makes someone a better citizen, and would describe you as trying to bring back a reactionary and bigoted government. Neither your accusation nor theirs is conducive to the discussion.

Alright, but that's just grounds to fix all of them

Fair enough. Once we've made all the public schools cost-effective, educational and nonpartisan, the Hasidim are next.

Interesting, does that mean you're okay with continuing to give them that money?

Yes and no.

At the most macro level, no. I don't want my tax dollars going to fund religious groups at all.

Given the fact that I don't get a choice in this, my money is going to religious groups, I find the orthodox relatively unobjectionable. Certainly and clearly better than Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, LDS, Academics, etc. On numbers alone if nothing else, they just aren't a priority problem to me. I don't see how they could be for anyone given their insular behavior. They aren't proselytizing, they aren't bombing shit, they aren't doing drive-bys. They're scamming the welfare system so they can sit in tiny rooms and argue about the Talmud rather than man a deli counter. If we're going to waste the taxpayer's money (and, I hope we can agree, we are), our country could do a lot worse, and does so on a regular basis.

If I were king, I would end all federal money going to schools, period. There's no such thing as secular education, so the state should GTFO. But that's not a political possibility, so we're talking about the least-bad policy to have. Lots of religions run this sort of scam, there was a whole thing in Minneapolis about Somali day-care centers that involved a lot of graft a few years back. I suspect which one people get outraged about depends on whether they consider jews or muslims to be their outgroup.

The only interesting thing I see here is that apparently, the NYT considers orthodox jews to be outgroup now.

As other commenters have mentioned, Hasidic Jews are an insular community who are politically organized to give little and take lots.

They very much violate the unspoken assumption that a school is trying to make a better American citizen (loosely defined as that is) who will not take from the public more than necessary. I'd say that's deserving of higher scrutiny.

I'm amenable to this argument.

But explain to me why this same line of thinking wouldn't apply to Teachers' Unions. Especially if we swap in 'woke' ideological teachings for religion in this instance.

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/how-teachers-unions-are-influencing-decisions-on-school-reopenings/2020/12

https://nypost.com/2021/07/04/teachers-union-vows-to-fight-back-against-critical-race-theory-critics/

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2022-election/teachers-union-wants-democrats-fight-back-republican-crt-attacks-rcna38001

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/teachers-ohios-largest-school-district-go-strike-2-days-start-new-scho-rcna44239

...Because there's no religious defense being offered? For all that you want to claim hypocrisy about this, there's a big difference between "a public school that is run to spread controversial messaging to kids as truth" and "a privately run religious school which actively tells you to not do more than study religion all day".

Moreover, you seem to think that I would support the teachers unions but not the Hasidic Jews. You shouldn't assume that about me when I haven't said anything about it.

"a public school that is run to spread controversial messaging to kids as truth" and "a privately run religious school which actively tells you to not do more than study religion all day".

From the perspective of outcomes, why should it matter?

At least the Hasids aren't making it mandatory to send other people's kids to their schools.

Moreover, you seem to think that I would support the teachers unions but not the Hasidic Jews.

Well make your position known, if you care.

Okay, but I don't only consider the perspective of outcomes, so I think it does matter. The Hasidic Jewish schools in question are not even pretending to care.

Well fine. If we convince them to start pretending to care, at least, will that satisfy you?

They put on a nice little song and dance about trying to fix things and go on doing them the same way, and this is acceptable?

Why would it? I don't want them to pretend, I want them to actually care!

It's one thing if they started caring but then fell into a state of apathy. It's quite another to either not care or just lie about caring.

For that matter, would it satisfy you? Are you okay with ignoring a smaller issue just because it wasn't framed the right way, according to you?

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats