This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Celebs, boundaries and emotional abuse
So two stories have popped up around the same topic recently: how much men have the right to complain about or police their women's public behavior.
First off: recent mother Keke Palmer finally got to go out and enjoy herself, and her outing involved being serenaded by R&B star and notorious hound Usher Raymond. Her "baby daddy" decided to come out and complain that: "A man of the family doesn’t want the wife & mother to his kids to showcase booty cheeks to please others".
Well, that didn't go well. The feminist-aligned internet tore into him and he appeared to have been promptly dumped and, insult to injury, merch clowning him is now being sold
At the same time, "toxic masculinity" has a white representative to balance it out: Jonah Hill is now being attacked for being a misogynistic narcissist. Soon after the birth of his child, his ex decided to post texts showing his demand that she stops sexy photo shoots or overly close relationships with men or hanging out with women from her "wild past"
Hill is also facing a backlash from the DM women for "emotionally abusing" his ex via his boundaries and non-negotiables and his exploiting of "therapyspeak" to sanctify controlling behavior.
In both stories both men are excoriated for hypocrisy because these women behaved this way when they met, and expecting them to change (including after childbirth) is inconsistency.
So, what culture war implications to take from this?
Keke Palmer's boyfriend had a very standard male reaction, regardless of charges of hypocrisy. Making it public that way was unwise, especially since he was the comparative minnow in the status competition. Times have changed. Maybe men like that should reconcile themselves to playing the role of the honorable wife who conveniently never sees any of these shenanigans, for everyone's sake. Of course, that would suggest some more restraint on Palmer's part...
The situation is reversed with Hill. He has the status. Which I suspect is a significant part of the motive to release it now and draw in Deuxmoi-reading women to help win a battle that she couldn't have won in the relationship. As many people asked: why did she put up with his absurd demands (asking her to not post risque surfing photos when he met her through them) for any time whatsoever? Well, because he was Jonah Hill, presumably.
No pretense to even wrestle with why men don't want the mother of their kids publicly on display. Just near-total lack of care.
Obviously the concept creep on abuse continues.
Is the celebrity (and wannabe celebrity) class just going to litigate every relationship online now for fans and political affinity group points...forever? The Hill thing happened a while ago and now it's supposed to be a thing? I suspect part of the push to call some of this "abuse" is precisely that there's a realization that no one should care about messy personal business. I assume the word game is retarding us coming to the conclusion one should in a panopticon: to stop caring. I wonder how long it'll hold.
It’s pretty funny how half-decent looking chicks and greater can summon a simp army at a moment’s notice by playing damsel in distress. It reminds me of a possibly-15-year-old-by-now meme of a chick posting a Facebook status update of “feeling sad :(“ and getting a ton of likes and comments to the tune of “omg are you okay?” “what happened?!” juxtaposed against a guy’s status update of “just found a cure for cancer!” that got one like and one comment from a male friend saying “cool dude”. What innocent times those were.
But yeah, nowadays in mainstream online discourse, it’s fairly a given that any male expectation of their girlfriends/wives to not do things like wear slutty outfits, go clubbing, post bikini pics, flirt with other men, grind up against other men will be denounced as toxic, insecure, and controlling. Because such expectations compromise the sacred right of women to have FUN, and anything that impedes a queen’s ability to have FUN must be wrong in and of itself. Men’s preferences are toxic and problematic, in contrast to women’s which are brave and valid. Men’s feelings are fundamentally illegitimate and they’re the problem if they’re compromising their girlfriends’/wives’ ability to feel fun, flirty, stunning, beautiful, brave, wonderful, and empowered.
A bizarre but amusing manifestation of this is pregnant women and alcohol. Whenever a hint of the topic comes up on subreddits such as AmItheAsshole or BestofRedditorUpdates, there’s a vocal contingent that insists pregnant women can have alcohol in moderation and should feel free to exercise that right. Boyfriends/husbands who don’t want their pregnant girlfriends/wives drinking are just being selfish, paranoid, and controlling. Any third-parties who discourage pregnant women from drinking are just invasive, misogynistic naysayers who want to control women’s bodies. I suppose it’s too much to ask a woman to abstain from alcohol for nine months.
While there's probably no level of alcohol consumption that's good for a developing fetus, there really is a medical controversy over what level is harmful. Obviously experimentation is unethical(and humans metabolize alcohol differently from other animals, so you can't just test it on rats or monkeys or whatever), so it's impossible to fully resolve. Reddit coming down entirely on one side of the matter is just what reddit does.
And of course, a father may say “I don’t want my wife taking that risk with my child” without being a jerk.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link