site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 24, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I see that neither side of the culture war right now focuses on the positive, on something beautiful. Both sides see themselves as righteous oppressed victims fighting against the evil empire of the other side, but for both it is less a Star Wars vision than a Terminator vision. War machines running over skulls at night-time, death and lasers. The culture war is bleak and stark, it has no poetry, no romance. It is a grim attrition war, trenches and minor offensives but few large breakthroughs if by breakthroughs one means reaching one's opponent and convincing him of something. Where are the creative songbirds of thought and word who would transcend this opposition and maybe get both sides to become aware that both are equally stuck in the human condition? Has rhetoric truly reached the limits of its potential power? I have so rarely seen anyone change his mind about anything more than minor details.

It is all so tiresome. Maybe it is possible to move in some orthogonal direction and flank this whole conflict from a side that has the breath of fresh air behind it?

Wrote a big comment, and then I refreshed like an idiot and lost it all. Why do I never learn. use an offline text editor.

tl;dr: Doomerism is not culture war, it is THE culture. Life is improving for many, but it is in the middle tier of Maslow's pyramid. We've dismantled the social structures that enabled people to seek the top 3 needs on Maslow's pyramid. Doomerism is people saying, "What's the point of getting all these lower-tier Maslow's needs met so much harder, if that means giving up on the top 3 needs on the pyramid."

p.s: I went into a side rant on housing prices/urbanism/density/social-fabric-of-a-build-environment how it all relates directly to this issue. But, I am the definition of a single issue broken record. So, take it as you will.

I like this framing of it.

Even if Maslow's hierarchy isn't strictly scientific I bet most people would generally agree that despite living in a world of material abundance, there is a dearth of purpose, of higher calling, 'meaning,' or actual prestige to be found. So the material abundance makes us comfortable but fails to fulfill our utility function, and our leaders have ceased to be inspirational and aspirational and the entire point of becoming wealthy seems to have become the end in itself.

At least in a world where you're not 100% certain where your next meal is coming from, you can focus on the 'purpose' of acquiring food to keep on living, which is to say you have a reason to act, to be, to live.

Now we live in a world where it is virtually impossible to miss even a single meal, and so our focus is on 'higher pursuits,' but it turns out that is mostly just other people trying to sell us things which will fulfill us, trying to convince you that it's a higher pursuit when really it is just a way to spend our material abundance on distractions while waiting on... what? What are we here for anymore?

Self-fulfillment seems just as distant as ever, and nobody seems interested in helping you actually achieve it, but by golly they'll try to convince you that they can if you just turn over your money!

mostly just other people trying to sell us things which will fulfill us, trying to convince you that it's a higher pursuit when really its' just a way to spend are material abundance while waiting on... what? What are we here for anymore?

It would be fine if there were people trying to sell us actual purpose like religions etc, which do still exist but are getting outcompeted in a capitalist world. Sadly in a free market for 'purposeful and meaningful activities' people are much more likely to pursue the easy path that is sold well than the hard path that actually provides what they want.

getting outcompeted in a capitalist world

Are they getting outcompeted, or are they simply not giving people what they really want?

One of these days, I'm going to finish that essay in my head regarding the character of Joshua Graham and how he relates to modern religion.