This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This ideology may work decently for you individually, although I think it takes a heroic individual to truly accept that brutal state of affairs.
Over time though, and on a societal level, this type of thinking will inevitably descend back into the might-makes-right, strong eat the weak world that we rose from. During the Axial revolution back around the time of Socrates, men realized that they could make themselves better. That there was a different way to live than simply accepting Nature as red in tooth and claw - we could master nature. But more importantly, we could master ourselves.
All the beauty and ease your life is filled with has been delivered to you from generations of your ancestors that rejected this naturalistic worldview in order to build a better future for their descendants. You can spit on their sacrifices and just focus on getting yours, man, but I reject your worldview as fundamentally selfish, and wrong.
I hate the world my ancestors have made. I hate the shiny metal prison that uses drugs and manipulative interactive propaganda to try and convince people they're happier or have more agency than a medieval serf.
I yearn for brutality and its reality. I yearn for the truth of man's condition in this Chtonic age of lies.
But most of all I despise those that, as you do, hide their cowardly quest for mere comfort behind a communal social standard that only exists to leech on their betters with impunity.
If rejecting this giant daycare is egoism then egoism is a moral duty.
Feel free to travel to Somalia, Syria or Ukraine with brutality available to experience. Personally I am entirely not looking for more brutality in my life, thank you very much.
They have. (for "happier" I do not really have enough knowledge to answer, but I also expect that)
Claiming that typical people nowadays have less agency than medieval serf is a quite wild claim. What kind of serfdom you compare to modern life?
I mean I've been to places like that. It is refreshing in a way, but you don't really get the proper experience as a tourist.
Plus none of that is needed, I can just go to my cabin in the woods.
But all my personal tribulations make your quest for comfort that has sacrificed freedom and humanity no less evil, of course.
How many years of manual labor do you need to buy a dwelling for you and your family? How much free time do you have per day? Per year? How much control do other humans have on the way you live your daily life? How many hours do you have away from anybody? How much do you pay in taxes? Can you be conscripted in an army against your will?
I don't find it wild at all personally once you actually look at what is going on instead of the stories people tell about what is going on.
But of course the only answer when we start to look at the grim reality of modern man is to clutch at the true purpose: comfort. Oh but wouldn't you just get sick and die, wouldn't it all be very hard work? Yes, but at least you would have lived a human life and not that of a machine.
How many times have you had to fight for your life against an angry mob? A wild animal?
How many times have you had to face starvation, or thirst, or truly look the spectre of death in the face?
When in your life have you had to sit back while a corrupt noble comes in and rapes your wife and daughter?
You are so deluded it would be comical if your ideologies weren't so dangerous.
I did once run from a mob and had my share of wild animal encounters by now. I also got pepper sprayed and robbed at knifepoint by lowlives some years ago. Turns out cities are much more dangerous than the countryside in my experience, especially if like me you are armed.
If anything this is how I ended up believing what I believe.
I've been poor, but it is legitimately impossible to starve in the modern world if you're not mentally ill. I did almost freeze to death once and I think that one counts.
I'm not a modern day German, so never. And I never will.
I fully understand that my beliefs are outside of what you deem acceptable, but it's fine, I also think yours are. The difference is that I actually have reasons for my belief that don't boil down to increasing my comfort at any cost.
My reasons boil down to the fact that I think violence is wrong, and I believe in the Christian ideal of suppressing our urge for violence. Fighting for a future where humanity can be something better.
Yeah I don't think upholding Christian ideals is the route you want to take in arguing for transhumanism -- it's extreme hubris and rejection of God rolled into one (either of which tends to be rapidly fatal in the OT, and non-negotiable bars to salvation in the NT), almost inherently and certainly in practice. "Another bite at The Apple", if you will.
I'll reconcile it eventually. Meanwhile I'm comforted by Christians of the past who were dedicated to raising our fallen world into a Heaven of its own.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link