This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I wonder how hard it is to predict who will marry interracially.
I ran into an old acquaintance the other day and was surprised to find out he married a black woman. Not surprised because he was a raging racist or something. It's just that in our social circles it's still a bit of an unusual thing to do. Looking back, there was nothing about this guy that said "yes, this is precisely the kind of dude who would marry a black woman."
Maybe the big ML models used by dating services are able to identify people more likely to "marry out" than the average user. Either way, it's clear some humans do, and some absolutely never would. What's behind it? Is it genetic? A particular upbringing?
I'm not even sure why I'm so interested in this question, but I am.
Nerdy shy guys obviously very disproportionately marry East and Southeast Asian women. I've thought about this and in most cases (based on speaking to and knowing a few of these couples) I think it's because these men don't approach women, but Asian mothers flip a switch when their daughters are 25 and say "you need to get married now", and cajole said daughters into approaching a nice, shy seeming, tall guy who looks like he has his shit together. I don't think this is bad behavior at all (and white mothers could probably do the same thing), but I've often been amused (and impressed) at how forward Chinese or Chinese-American women I've met are with men they want to date. A lot of these white guys have never been approached by a pretty-ish girl (or maybe any girl) and so fall into relationships that lead to marriage and kids.
White guys with black wives are more interesting. I've known quite a few (it seems much more common in the UK than the US). I'd say they often fall into three categories.
The first is possibly-slightly-xenophilic ambitious white guy with FOB or otherwise 1st generation African woman. Often both professionals, ambitious, academic. One couple I know like this are two doctors, another a lawyer and a banker. Often the woman has a history of only dating white guys, at least since she moved to the West. I think affluent African parents are more relaxed about their kids marrying white than many Asian (especially South Asian) and Arab/North African parents, possibly for cultural and religious (they're usually Christian) reasons.
The second category is the 'cool' white guy with a largely black friend group. He's a DJ, works in arts or advertising, has some creative role, definitely loves rap and hiphop, prides himself on being invited to the cookout. Goes to largely black clubs and bars on weekends. May have a crustpunk/trustpunk vibe, very into BLM. Charitably, he's simply around a lot of black people and so is obviously likely to date black women, less charitably he thinks it's a form of assimilation into the black culture he so admires and/or a fetish. Maybe it's all of the above.
The last category is the 'nerdy husband of nerdy middle-class black girl' category. There are a lot of black nerds but ime they very rarely date each other. Black cottagecore anime girlies have skinny, tall white glasses boyfriends with scruffy beards, and black super smash bros anime D&D guys have short, sometimes chubby, white or asian girlfriends. The only black nerd couple I've ever met were both Africans who studied in a very white European city together. I was worried about a black friend of mine because the guy she was dating had a low-key reputation for being a Sam Hyde fan and casual racist, but they're now married and he seems to worship the ground she walks on, so maybe she changed him.
And because parents, like women, tend to be hypergamous, and a white son-in-law is higher status than an Asian/Arab/Indian/etc. son-in-law.
And this here is all we need to see that in western countries being "white" is still an advantage ceteris paribus relative to being a minority. Note that this isn't about "whites are actually better at important thing XYZ hence they have higher status", it's "whites with traits ABC" are seen as better than equivalent "non-whites with trains ABC". Hence the continual need for programs to elevate non-whites relative to whites.
Being white is still seen as a plus in the year of our Lord 2023, thus all the programs necessary to change this state of affairs, which incidentally are often just another artifice by a group of white "leaders" telling us what we need instead of actually listening to us, and any non-white "leaders" having drunk the progressive white Kool-Aid so hard they might as well be white people with dark skin, there are very few genuine "bring the white man down a peg or three" things out there, and when they pop up they resolutely get condemned by whites because they don't conform to white people's expectations of what minorities should be like.
Among Indians, especially Indian mothers, having straight hair, blue eyes, and fair skin, is considered a huge plus. Needless to say, the number of Indian guys who have these traits is fairly low. In the West, fair skin for men is not a plus. Blue eyes are a fetish for some girls, but green is perhaps preferred. Straight hair in men is actually a negative, the ideal being Fabio type locks.
Asian women are not nearly as influenced by their mothers, but they seem to prefer height above all else. Whether or not the top of their head is above or below their date's nipples seems to matter hugely. I really can't imagine why. They also do not prefer straight hair, presumably as they think they have that covered.
You might think that "white people" are the single group that does not prefer traits associated with another ethnic group, but this misses the diversity among white people. All girls with straight hair curl their hair. All girls with curly hair straighten it. Girls with gentle curls blow dry their hair straight and re-curl it, so it looks exactly as it was before. Girls who are pale desperately try to tan. Blonde girls cry over their lack of eyebrows. Freckles are a positive only when you don't have them, etc.
People want what they don't have. I think that captures most of it. I imagine that there is some women out there who is perfectly comfortable with her body. I would guess she is trans, though.
I am from this culture, as is my whole family. I have never heard of straight hair being a particular influence on anyone's desires. Non-brown eyes as well are extremely extremely rare (my aunt has green eyes, other than that I can probably count on my hands the number of people I've seen with them back home) and even when people give a damn about it it's mostly for women rather than men.
Same with fair skin. Fair skin is a massive plus yes, but again more so for women than men and also it's only a plus because fair skin is associated with being higher caste (not universally true but that's the association). However this only extends to the point where the fair skin makes you mimic a high caste, being albino gets you no benefits at all. Same with being whiter than a Mediterranean, at that point your skin is so pale that it's very clear you're an outsider who's not even part of the caste system, and that gets you back down to bringing no beneifts. An Italian could benefit from "fair skin", a Nordic will not.
One of my earliest memories is my mother telling me (when I was around 3) that when I grow up I will marry an educated, intelligent girl who is a Muslim. She told me that if the girl was not Muslim but really loved me, she would convert, and if she didn't that was a sign it wasn't true love. (the Muslim bit is a stand in for similar cultural values, plenty of Muslims have different cultural values to me and would not make a good fit, my parents would also not be happy if I got a Muslim girl from a family that drank alcohol).
For a long time I was poisoned by western propaganda and scoffed at this, why did it matter whether she converted to Islam or I converted to her religion? For after all love is love and the situation is symmetric. I even went so far as to hurt my mother by saying that it wasn't a given that my children would be Muslim (this is one of the big regrets I have). However now that I have grown up and become wiser I have realized the value of what she spoke of, and now not only will I not marry a non-Muslim woman but if she converts I will rightfully place more conditions on her expected behavior compared to a woman who was born Muslim (no different to how banks charge more interest on loans from poor people compared to rich people). After having a good heart, cultural and values fit is the most important thing needed for a successful marriage (even more so than similar intelligence levels).
More options
Context Copy link
Okay, what? That is a seemingly absurd characterization. Genuinely, how much interactions with Indians in the west have you had? Or is it with a single particular subgroup of Indians?
Legitimately have no idea how the blue eyes thing is, but it sounds like you're basing this statement off of particular north Indian subgroup where you noticed this and where there are blue eyes in a small portion of them, but as you well know, most of India has nobody with blue eyes outside of a tiny portion of the population amongst a small portion of the northern Indian population near the pakistani border closer to the middle east. Amongst the rest of the population this isn't even a consideration since it's not something seen.
Hair... Like I'm genuinely a bit confused at how you're making such a judgement? Like there are people with straight hair, wavy hair, and curly hair who are considered beautiful men in many of India's film industries. Like if there's a preference for straight hair, it's like the same as the preference for straight hair as a factor in defining a hot white man as defined white women in America, where I'm super unsure about it, but the fact that there are more straight haired white men suggests there is some preference, but it's not significant by any measure. And nowhere near as significant to actually say is a huge factor. Also, like most Indian men have straight hair? All in all super confused tbh.
Most Indians, at least in Indians in America, the majority of whom originated from the Indian tech immigration boom during the 90's and early 00's are fairly religious and still quite traditional. Now if you're speaking about the demographics of Indians in the UK or the ones that immigrated from a different demo prior to if they're Christian instead of Hindu or Muslim then things might be off, but most of the Indians in America are from that tech immigration group. Those were Indians coming from many different class backgrounds, but because of the meritocratic nature of becoming a software engineer meant that this wave included a much larger portion of immigrants from lower classes. Lower classes that tend to be much more religious and traditional than the higher cosmopolitan class of Indians that historically was able to immigrate.
Most immigrant Indian parents, yes, prefer fair skin, but fair skin within the Indian demographic. This isn't a sliding scale where the white skin of white people makes up for the fact that they are not Indian. For most of this demo, bringing home a White partner is not seen as a positive thing. A significant number of mothers and fathers care about religion and culture and with a white partner they, probably rightfully, see as the end of the line for their religions and culture being meaningfully passed on as anything more than just a name and a couple of parties.
I've seen families go ballistic where huge rifts were created when children brought home and introduced their parents to non Hindu partners that were still Indian. I know a guy introduce his parents to his ivy league college sweetheart, a beautiful White woman who was great in both character and background. Was all around a standout person, worked as a lawyer and came from a semi-wealthy family. None of that mattered. The family only started speaking somewhat more recently after they had a kid, and still despite that speaking with the guy he says his relationship with his parents is irrevocably broken. It'll get better, but they aren't ever really going to forgive him. I've seen similar things with women who brought home both White and Asian men.
I mean even if you bring home a partner that's Indian and the same religion, that might cause problems. It's not a simple situation. People love grouping India as this single large diverse country, but it's basically like taking the European Union and saying that everyone is European. In some ways the most recent period under Mughal and then British rule did make Indians closer and more unified because of the single external enemy, but that period was nowhere nearly long enough, nor are organized enough to break down those regional divisions and differences fully. Historically India was not united with a huge empire for most of the subcontinent's history. Similar to Europe where outside of brief periods India was a region divided into dozens of separate kingdoms with different languages, cultures and history. Much of India speaks different languages and there are broad strokes of cultural similarities like how Europeans are similar to each other, but there are huge swathes of differences. People from different regions speak different languages, they interpret cultural traditions often radically differently, have different ways they practice religion, ect.
In the modern day this factor matters less and the first gen immigrants have resigned themselves to that their child does not have the same care for regional differences, caste differences as much, ect that their generation learnt and grew up with, but there is still a decent implied assumption amongst most Indians that their kids will bring home an Indian of some sort. If they don't, most will not look on that with a great view. Even if that person is taller, more beautiful, more successful, ect than an Indian person, the Indian partner is preferable. Now of course it's not like parents prefer a loser Indian to a great non Indian, but what I'm trying to convey is that the non Indian person has to be significantly better for people to accept them and even then to some level they will never be as welcomed.
Sidenote: I'd say that fair skin is something that Indian parents prefer and care about a lot more. Those that were born and grew up in the West probably also carry some a fair skin preference, but it's nowhere near as large. The demo that grew up in the West grew up without the same level of cultural baggage and was very explicitly raised in a more diverse environment that I can see has made them much less as intense about that factor. It's something people care about yes, but it's not as big as many of the other factors in attractiveness like height, attractive facial features, charm, bmi, career, ect.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link